Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – So today I'm joined by Katarzyna Pawlik, who's the Senior Global ABM Manager at Universal Robots. Kat, thanks so much for joining us today on this episode, Customer Expansion ABM.
Katarzyna Pawlik (Universal Robots) – Pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Declan (strategicabm) – Well, let's – Universal Robots – let's kick off with a question around that. Obviously, when I saw the name first of all, it kind of brought up ideas about robotics and all very kind of advanced scientific things. But tell us for the audience, who are Universal Robots? And perhaps tell us something that might surprise us.
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – So I'm a big sci-fi fan, so I see where you're going with that. And I must tell you, it's a very exciting thing to be part of, you know, the overall global automation journey that I think we're all on – and it will never stop!
So Universal Robots is the world-leading collaborative robot producer; we call them 'cobots'. So when you think about the robotic arms that perform different tasks, this is what we produce and it's not only about the arms. It's also about the platform that enables you to create all sorts of different solutions for various industries, for automotive, manufacturers, food and bev', electronics, and so on.
So, we work with different companies. In my case, of course, the large ones – when we talk about ABM – to make their life easier, to have them be more productive, to have the work conditions improve, bring some flexibility, you know, some of the industries are prone to a lot of change, especially nowadays, they need to adjust in lots of their production lines and having a more flexible, robust solution could be the answer.
Something interesting about us, we're big on coffee! It's...
Declan (strategicabm) – Okay!
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – ... and when you say you have good coffee in your office, I challenge you to come to our office, we're based in Denmark, to come and try our amazing coffee. We really love it.
Declan (strategicabm) – Good stuff. I didn't know the Danes were famous for their coffee, but that's, that must be the case, right? Our CEO is a big fan of a good cuppa, so... Oh, a good cup of coffee!
So, you mentioned that, Kat, that you were – obviously this is Let's talk ABM, talking about Account-based Marketing – you mentioned there that you look after particularly large customers or large accounts. So let's perhaps, for the audience, break down a little bit the ABM program there. I'll just fire some questions to you and you can see how you handle them.
In terms of, tell us a little bit about what challenge did you face there that made you say, well actually ABM is the right solution to meet that challenge?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Hmm. So yes, it's right. I work on the large account kind of as a whole. It is my function to look after the large account marketing and of course ABM is one of the key strategies that I would implement. You know, coupled with other demanding activities, we do a lot of events.
There's a lot of face-to-face interaction. There's a lot of work with the Sales team, which I really like and appreciate, you know. We work on fundamentals, things like messaging, we work on sales training, and so on. So it's really a holistic kind of view into how we approach large accounts and, you know, it's a living organism. We're still working on it, but this is kind of the whole scope.
And then ABM comes in, because when you think about really driving that relationship, really driving the intimacy that we need with our large customers, especially being a channel-first business, ABM just seems like a really good idea!
Declan (strategicabm) – Well, I think that could go on a T-shirt. ‘Sounds like a really good idea, right? ABM!’
So you mentioned that intimacy, channel-first, and customers. Is that the case then? The objective is actually customer expansion as opposed to new logo - customer ABM expansion, right?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Correct. So we do have a kind of short list of accounts that are current customers somewhere in the world. And the predominant kind of target is to expand those.
And you know, when you think about factories, they have plants all over the place, right? So there's one plant here, one plant there. They may not speak to each other necessarily, share information. So it's almost like a new logo, but with that caveat that you might have that success story already, with another country, or another plant. So it's a bit of a door-opener for us, but this is our focus yes.
Declan (strategicabm) – Customers. Okay. Which makes a lot of sense. And obviously, the history of ABM started with customer expansion, customer growth 20-odd years ago, so it's coming kind of full circle with customer expansion ABM.
And in terms of the... how did you decide which accounts warranted an ABM approach? What was – tell us a little bit about your account selection process. What did you think in that area?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – So there's a couple of layers I guess we have; we do have a robust system in place where we score accounts based on, you know, firmographics, potential, different aspects of the local kind of market behavior and some regional priorities and so on.
But this is large accounts and when we talk about ABM specifically, and I think it was – it has been mentioned on this platform many times already – if you don't have the participation of the commercial teams and other teams on the account team, it's not really worth doing ABM. 'Cause then you're just a one-woman band doing marketing and not really doing ABM.
So, selection is one thing. But if we actually do ABM or not, it really comes down to the collaborative piece.
Declan (strategicabm) – Gotcha. I'll make a note of that: 'one-woman band'. Which is quite a, it's quite a recurring theme within the ABM community, because obviously a lot of great ABMers I've spoken to start like that – as a one-man, or one-woman ABM band, and then obviously grow from there, really.
And also you mentioned there about the success with your commercial team, so hopefully we're going to, we'll touch on that in terms of alignment as well, because I think you've got a few secrets, and a few interesting pieces of advice to share with the audience. And in terms of, so customer expansion, what kind of programs are you running? Is it primarily One-to-one or One-to-few, or? What are you running there?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – So we're kind of experimenting and I've been in the role, I think it's going to be a year whenever we, beginning of December. So, you know, it is my first 12 months. 12 months are the hardest when you try to prove the program and really have those relationships work. And we've kind of tried and tested different approaches in the last 12 months.
We did a lot of One-to-one, but more in the form of supporting the accounts to open some doors. So it wasn't really like a full-blown program that would run for, you know, six to 12 months. It was more like nitpicking small things that we can do, maybe expand the contact database, or try to really find additional contacts and decision-makers.
So we did a lot of that work. We've tested a One-to-many approach as well and we're very big on industry, so our One-to-many would focus on that. And what I really want to kind of lean towards for next year is definitely more of the One-to-one approach, but probably on a larger scale. One-to-one is really my favorite. We're talking about ABM because that's where the creativity can go wild, and you can really deep-dive into the insights
We will certainly keep the One-to-many approach, because industry-led type of content and you know, even identifying the intent signals, that's probably our kind of sweetspot. And then I'll probably want to explore a little bit of clustered accounts, maybe some regional ones where we can do some persona work on a One-to-few basis.
Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. Yep. And in terms of the, if you think about the One-to-one approach that you're doing there at the moment, what kind of account experience do the customers actually, what do they experience? What are they, what kind of journey are you taking them on of, you know, making them more aware of your products, your whole product range, your solutions, et cetera? What are they seeing from you?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Hmm. This year we focused a lot on awareness and really being vocal about knowing the industry as we kind of… we’re going to talk about that a little bit more in depth later on. But as I mentioned already, we are a channel-first business, which means that our end users need a bit more convincing perhaps when we talk to them directly, to say that, 'Hey! We should have that relationship, we should, you know, talk more. We are the experts, we are leading the steer.'
So not that, not everything goes through the channel, but we have that direct access to them. And we can have those conversations as well. So there's been a lot of that to kind of navigate through the ecosystem, and find our voice that should be the right one when we talk to our end users directly.
Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah.
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – And you know, and a lot of kind of consistency, trying to find the right cadence because I think every organization faces that, when the more kind of teams, the more organizations within everyone wants to contact the same person at the same time. So, really trying to find that balance of how we should communicate and what we should communicate to those, especially the strategic accounts. So we don't just bombard them with crossed messages, and we are consistent visually, on paper, and with kind of how we behave as well.
Declan (strategicabm) – And what's the kind of mix then? Digital, physical, is it mainly digital or do you, is that, do you have a series of events you take people through as well?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – So digital is a big aspect of course, because of the reach. It, I think it will stay – as much as I would love to shift to something different, I think it just has to be there, and we have to be creative, not to kind of burn out that channel in a way because everyone's doing digital, and you want to be seen, you want to be heard. And that's the place where we really need to be creative I think, as ABMers, to get to the right person.
We do a lot of events, and when we have some of the flagship events, we try to find a space where perhaps we can do something special. You know, like an appreciation dinner, or something that's unique to the people that attend and we want to have some face-to-face time with them to have a conversation.
Of course we have our Sales and Accounts teams as well and they are the face of everything that we do. So although we, you know, exist a lot in digital, then they are the parts that has to be there face-to-face, and interact with them on kind of a daily basis. So everyone, right? 'It takes a village.' Whoever they interact with, I consider them to be doing a little bit of ABM.
Declan (strategicabm) – And just one point, Kat, you mentioned it'd be interesting to share with the audience from an ABM point of view: Do you find that those kind of 'appreciation dinners', I think you called them, are they quite effective? Are they very effective with those kind of key stakeholders, decision-makers?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – I think they are. I think the challenge for those is to get people in and once you get them in, it's really valuable. I think that's... and I've seen it multiple times, you know; it has to be done just right in terms of the timing, the place, the, you know, whether you do it before a big conference or during, if someone else is organizing events for the same end users, right? Because there's always the competitive element.
So if done right and with a little bit of luck, if you get the right people in the room, I think they're very effective and memorable. Yeah,
Declan (strategicabm) – No, I definitely agree. We're definitely seeing that with our customers as well, that, you know, obviously the, as you said, whether it's pre-event, during event or even a standalone invitation just to come and join you, listen to a thought leader or some peer-to-peer work with their colleagues, et cetera. So I think it's a great way to establish trust, and build those relationships.
What, you know, one of the kind of things that many people kind of like, you know, they put their hands in their hair, whatever, cover their eyes – is when they think about, you know, attribution, attribution modeling, and measuring. What's your position on how you are attributing or measuring your efforts there?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – I think it's no surprise, I think it's hard for everyone to do it. I've recently been working with one of the ABM automation tools, just to kind of get that baseline of, you know, what the accounts are doing, who's at what stage and so on.
If we can try to track the digital attribution there, then I think, as many of us do, even though we had 50 new tools, and I don't think the right tool or the holy grail of tools have not been invented yet, so that we can track absolutely everything for ABM. You know, the good Excel always prevails. We have Sales Navigator, right? We have anecdotal kind of aspect of it, when you talk to your Sales teams and something went really well, and you know, maybe it is in your CRM, maybe it isn't. There's just so many different aspects to it, to what can be measured.
And then it's fine when you can write everything down. But how do you interpret that as well? That's another kind of caveat to it. You can have all the different information, but what do you draw from it? So, is it good to have a lot of information to show that you've done a lot, if you can't really draw the right conclusions from it? I don't know. It's a... it's a really difficult, difficult topic.
I think the key there, even though it's super-manual and, you know, it takes a lot of time and it always will. It is the transparency thing, things I like to do, for example, is to have, you know, like a common tracker. If you have your top 10, top 15, top 20 accounts that you're really working on, let's say on One-to-one basis, have that common tracker where you have all sorts of different things. It can be, you know, numbers; it can be anecdotal; it can be different things – but it's all in one place.
And you can come in with your Account team and just go through all those different ABM measurements and kind of decide what to do next. Probably a count of the account – part of the account planning, or one of those sessions – and that's where it could really be useful, and bring something more tangible, like another meeting or another introduction. But yeah, it's a difficult one as everyone says, I'm sure!
Declan (strategicabm) – Most people do, most people do. I mean, I think it all depends on what you're trying to report on, really. And my most recent guest on the show was Nora Conklin from Forrester, and obviously her job is as an analyst, is to talk to people like you and the feedback that she's getting from the market is everyone says it's difficult, and some people say, well indeed, maybe attribution isn't the right way to go? And not to get too obsessed about trying to attribute everything, every single marketing dollar and rather report back, as you said on the anecdotal evidence, somewhat, on your impact on their reputation, your relationships and the revenue that's coming through.
But yeah, I think that's, I think it's a journey. I think most companies, most ABMers are on that journey and they're all trying to work out the best, the best route really.
One thing you mentioned Katarzyna earlier, which I thought probably would be interesting to ask you, was you mentioned that I think the number one channel for yourselves at Universal Robots is your partners – your partner network. So you're a channel-first business, I think you call this yourselves. So, what challenge does it bring to be a channel-first business? And perhaps if you could reflect on that, from an ABM point of view as well.
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Hmm. It’s a very interesting place to start ABM. So, actually my first marketing job was in channel, at Dell. So that's where I started my B2B journey, and then that ABM came along and, until now, you know, it was mostly you have an end user, maybe you have some kind of element of partnership on the side, you decide if you want to work with them or not.
In this case, it's just there and we have to work with it, around it, with it, through it, to it and… and so on. So, it's like another level of, kind of complexity in terms of, you know, normally we need to know our end user very well, our customer, in this case we also need to know the partners, which is a very interesting challenge to have because in many cases when you go after, you know, the big manufacturer, they might have already an integrator that they like to work with; maybe they are looking for a new one.
We're talking about kind of big-scale installations, and you know, big orders. So, in this case it's just not enough to know them. You need to find out if you have to do a 'with' campaign, or maybe you have to go to the end user, and then involve an integrator or a different partner later on down the line. So it's just a very interesting journey and kind of planning aspect to it that is, I think, not the usual one that you would see in ABM in other companies.
Declan (strategicabm) – But when you are creating your ABM strategy, do you almost have two customers in mind? You're thinking about the end customer and you're thinking about the channel partner through which you reach that end. Are you thinking about both of those at the same time?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – So not in every case. I have a predominant goal is to have a better relationship, or more relationship with our end users to, you know, let them know we're always there to, for them, to work with them directly, to talk, to share experience.
But then there's cases where only the partner has the key to the door to a certain end user, and then you must find either the right partner or you already know them, but you need to figure out how to go together to cross the door, because otherwise you cannot. So it kind of depends on the account and the situation, which makes it kind of exciting. Because you cannot kind of assume anything. Almost every account is different in that regard – how you want to approach it, and what's the go-to-market for each account.
Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. No, er, it must be different – I've never worked in that kind of area, so it must be very different thinking about, you know, the partners that you have to manage and obviously and the end users and customers that you'd like to have perhaps a stronger relationship with as well.
One thing at the top of the show, you mentioned, Kat, you mentioned your Sales teams, and you talked about a kind of a holistic approach where you were doing training, running road shows, et cetera, et cetera. And I think one thing when we were talking prior to this recording, you said to me was that you 'shake hands on paper' and everyone agrees, and then that's the moment you get a reality check, and then you have unforeseen challenges.
So I'm guessing when you talked about you shake hands on paper, you were perhaps talking about working with Commercial teams or your Sales colleagues, or your Account Managers, et cetera. And so, and then you have unforeseen sales alignment challenges. So, give us a couple of those reality checks and perhaps what you've learned from that.
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Hmm. Yeah, that's a topic that's kind of, I'm not sure if I should say 'close to my heart', because it's quite, it can cause quite a big challenge, but it certainly is the reality of ABM and everyone should be aware of it if they are just at the beginning of the journey.
So what can happen is that, like I said, you know, you agree on things, everyone understands what ABM is. You did a great job explaining, you did a great job outlining what the outcome will be and so on. And then the unforeseen circumstances come into play.
So, I've seen situations and it is probably not a rare kind of occasion where, you know, KPIs change, right? So, imagine you have a Sales team and they have accounts aside, and you start working on your ABM program – could be One-to-one, could be One-to-few – and we all know it doesn't take two months, right? To bear fruit and be successful! It takes a little bit longer than that. But in the meantime, someone else is in on now of that account. So you kind of lose that momentum that you've built, and probably the agreement that you had with that particular person, because a new one is the face of the account now and perhaps they're not that into ABM and they like to do things differently.
So, it's a very interesting thing that no one really talks about. And I think there's a lot of changes, you know, businesses are living organisms on the commercial side. Many things can change. There's a decision being made not always cascaded to the Marketing teams, or different parts of the organization, and you're kind of running something unaware that there's no one else on the other side to kind of catch your marketing outburst, and take it forward to the account.
Another thing is a little bit similar when we talk about, I guess also the goals and how the teams are set up, and there's a little bit on, you know, what the Sales teams are meant to deliver. If we're talking about revenue, then they would want to work on the easier deals. And the ABM deals are typically the more difficult ones. It requires time, it requires patience, it requires different forms of investment. They're harder, they're bigger customers. So, if we're talking about just closing revenue, then the natural thing to do is to go after low-hanging fruit and perhaps smaller deals, and not spend that much time on the difficult deals.
So those are things that also can happen that I think no one really talks about when you start, but are really important to kind of be aware of and prepare yourself – how you want to structure the program, because those things can happen.
You know, regional alignment is another one. When you have an organization where regions are quite prominent and, you know, they have their own Marketing teams, how do you align with the regional teams? Would they be running their own programs? If it's more of a central function, who's the owner of what? Then, you know, the good old RAC or R&R is always a good idea to kind of, you know, write it down from the very beginning: Who's doing what; who's responsible for what? And as the regional insights are always a must in my opinion because they live there, they work there, they know the market, you know, you have to decide on those things, how much they want to be involved. And so there is no tension afterwards when you're running your programs.
So yeah, communication transparency kind of underlines that should anything change, it'll be great for the ABMer to be aware, so they're not just shouting into the vacuum with a campaign, but they could, you know, adjust and flip some things around. So that it just brings value constantly.
Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. And so, Kat...
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Couple of examples!
Declan (strategicabm) – … no – good examples!
Let me ask you a question then: What then would the Account Management / Sales team at Universal Robots, what would they say about you and your ABM efforts now, if we invited them onto this podcast, what would they say?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – I think they would talk a lot about Sales Navigator! I think that's the majority of conversations we have is around that – and me trying to share a lot of insights with them that they take or not.
But I really try to keep them in the loop and whatever I find is, I almost feel as if I am a little part of their team. So, we are kind of one team – that it is not 'Me, Marketing; you, Sales; you Account teams'. We’re kind of, you know, in one place, and whatever I know, you should know as well. But yeah, these are kind of two things that we would, they would probably talk about – Sales Navigator for sure!
Declan (strategicabm) – Well, I mean, Sales Navigator's a great tool. So, if you are helping the Sales teams use it better, then that's a good thing.
And I think secondly, the thing you said there about one team, I think if that's what they would say about you and your ABM efforts, then that's all credit to you, really. So well done on that one.
Um, linked to that, actually, one thing I know we were talking about before was about how do you find, how do you hire good ABMers? And I think you were saying to me that the skillset required by an ABMer, somebody who does Account-based Marketing, is quite different. So what would you say makes a good ABMer?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – So I have this, a little model I wrote, I wrote this little article a few years ago and I still quite like this model, it's like a 'Five Cs' or 'The missing Cs in the ABM' and it goes like this:
So the first one is curiosity. So when we are looking at a person to hire for ABM, we have some good candidates or we're just going after potential, which is a case in many ways, 'cause we don't have that many experienced ABMers in the market. They need to be curious; they need to want to deep-dive into things, you know? Really try to understand what's going on, and not just try to collect information, but really be curious to understand what they've got, if it makes sense, and what it means. So that's number one: Curious.
The second thing is creativity. I think that's a no-brainer. You're thinking outside the box, always thinking about the next thing we could do is super-important.
The third one is courage. I think, er, we in ABM, we need to be bold. You know, we take calculated risks. We experiment a lot, er... you kind of need to be courageous enough to go to your leaders and present and you know, take the serious conversations. So it is really a good thing to have.
Consistency is number four. If we're talking about the marathon, you certainly have to persevere and really be consistent in what you are doing. Although when we talk about marathon, I feel like, you know, if you do finish a marathon, it's like an end. It's finite, right? And ABM is a little bit of an infinite game, to talk to Simon Sinek's kind of book, when it's an always-happening thing, you know, you win one conversation, you go after another. As long as the account is there and you really want to work with them, it's a never-ending game, really, that you're after.
And composure is my last one, number five. Because you're just required to have so much patience with ABM, you know, you can't rush. You need to focus. And in a world of constant gratification, really that patience pays off.
And the fun thing – and I know we'll be talking about AI a little bit later on – and I'm a big fan and I've been playing with AI with regards to this article, and AI suggested number six, which is clarity and clarity comes, you know, to the metrics and goals that one has, to really be clear on why are we doing this and what the purpose is. So, this is kind of my little formula for an ABMer.
Declan (strategicabm) – So: curiosity, creativity, courage, consistency, composure. And the sixth one, brought to you by ChatGTP or something similar, is clarity.
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Correct. Yes.
Declan (strategicabm) – Okay, well I've got that down, I've got that. We'll share that when we post the, when we post-represent, we'll do some work on that. And so you could, would you use that as a framework for actually hiring people, is that correct? You could judge people against that?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – I mean it's of course more on the soft side, right? But it's a good lens to really, especially when you, probably a majority of hiring committees for ABM, you know, do some kind of tasks.
It is what you look out for, especially with someone, when someone comes with little or no ABM experience, but you think they do have potential. You know, would they yield under pressure? Are they consistent? Are they creative? You know, can they multitask?
These are I think the ingredients for a good, you can always learn. There's so many great resources, there's so many great courses for ABMers to get the fundamentals. But like, on the personality side, which I think is also really important. Do they have that, or a majority of those? Yeah.
Declan (strategicabm) – Well look, I think they're good skills, as you said, good soft skills or good power skills to look out for really.
Let's just ask a question around something that I know you were doing. I'm not sure if you're necessarily doing it in this current role, but I know in your previous role at Capgemini you were doing this, which was Pursuit Marketing. And a recent guest, Celia Slack who works over at ServiceNow, they've actually brought that into their ABM program. So she heads up the Pursuit Marketing element within their overall ABM strategy.
Could you add to that perhaps in terms of what was your experience of doing this at Capgemini? And do you think that this should be added to the, kind of, the ABM mix?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – I really do. I really do think it should be added. And this is where my ABM, slash Pursuit Marketing – dual marketing journey – started at Capgemini. So, I kind of started from Pursuit and then moved into ABM, and they're just so interconnected.
I mean, if you are doing ABM, tenders will pop up with big companies, right? So, how do you make sure that you are top of mind when the situation happens throughout your ABM program that then, you know, when they release an RFI or RFP, that they think of you. That's like the holy grail of kind of doing ABM, I think, with large customers, that's, when those situation happens, you're already there, shortlisted. Or you are already there, they're thinking about you as a potential vendor. I think it's very, very connected in how we approach it, and very close to my heart. It's a crazy discipline.
I did listen to Celia's episode about this. I was interested in what she had to say. I think we share a lot of thoughts on that, that it is a weekends and evenings job, in many cases. Because the deadlines are unforgettable. But, it also is thus far, the most creative job I've had. Because you really have to, you know, think on your toes and if people don't know very much in how the process works, you know, at the very beginning, you don't really have much creative wiggle room. It's very much about paperwork. You need to give technical documentation, you need to be very strict. You in many cases you get a template that you need to work off.
So how do you make sure that with all of the submissions to an RFI that, you know, a company receives, how do you send out when everything is just papers? So we need to, we try to find ways where you can, you know, sneak in a hyperlink somewhere or additional PDF that's like hyper-personalized with amazing visual identity, some videos. It really, really is an amazing function. And I would love to have that UI at some point. But it does require time and effort, and probably extra set of hands to work on it.
Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, and it's also, I think I used to be involved in this in a previous life as well, lots of tenders and RFPs and, you know, multimillion-pound deals, all the rest of it. And it does take over your life. And when they drop, when they arrive in your inbox, you don't normally say, 'Oh yes!' You normally say, 'Oh no!' Of course you celebrate it when you win, et cetera. But it can be very, very painful and very time-consuming, as you said. And the deadlines are normally horrific and you need to drop everything.
And I was just thinking about what, you know, you were saying there about making sure that you stand out, et cetera. And also I think if you are kind of leading with these kind of Pursuit Marketing and influencing, you can actually end up that when the RFI or the RFP comes out, the questions are questions that you've actually helped them write. And so you are the only person who can answer them correctly. 'Cause they're your questions! And I've seen that done a few times in previous roles that I've been involved in, and and yeah, it makes it a hell of a lot easier when you've already got the answers to the questions. So yeah, that's an interesting one.
Another thing, Kat, you were saying to me before, which I loved was, you know, I think you've got a little bit of an artistic background, I think is what you were telling me. And I think one of the things that you said you loved is the kind of whole, the visual storytelling side. And there's so much talk now in B2B about, you know, storytelling, telling great stories and not just being very kind of B2B robotic, but, you know, bringing stuff from B2C world. Tell us a little bit about that visual storytelling and perhaps, I dunno, an anecdote or two that you can share.
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Yeah, no, I completely agree. We really underestimate I think the impact of the visual. You know, when we talk about storytelling, we talk a lot about copy. I think it's been there for a while now that most of us understand what storytelling is, in terms of copy.
But I think in terms of the visual, we're still a little bit behind and certainly a huge gap between B2C and B2B. Where, kind of in my head it's people. You know? It's also people – they buy, you know, trainers, online. They're triggered visually, emotionally, by certain things. Why not implement some of that into the B2B world?
And I'm very interested in things like, you know, being inspired by pop culture, or formats that are popular in internet or on TV that people kind of resonate with. And why not translate that into a format that would work in the B2B world?
So yeah, to give you an example, I have quite a few, so hang on! Hang on tight! There is for one of the, I think it was Pursuit work, I can't really remember, but there's an element where it's about meeting a potential team. So should you work with us, this will be the team that, you know, will be your team, extended team. This is where you will outsource, these will be the bosses, et cetera, et cetera.
So normally, you know, you prepare a PDF or a presentation with pictures, and one day you thought, why not do something like, you know, interesting?! This is like probably everyone is doing the same format. So probably people that are listening, some of you know, there's a thing called ‘73 Questions’. It's done by Vogue, I think, which is a very interesting concept where you kind of, you know, first-person perspective, you're kind of behind the camera, and you're just asking questions to your interviewee, in an interesting setting as well, because they usually walk around their houses or some school places, right?
So then we thought, why not kind of do, I don't know, ‘10 Questions’ and make it a B2B edition, where you give that little twist of the kind of pop culture, something interesting, something unusual, but still very professional, and maybe being more personal at the same time.
So we try that a few times on ABM Pursuits, and it was received very well because it was just more personal. It wasn't just a PDF, a PowerPoint, but it was really something they received with, you know, with a smile and still conveyed the right messages. You know, we talk about personal things like I look forward to work with you. I also like the same football club as you do. You know, it is just tiny, tiny things that really make a difference in the way how the company's perceived and the relationship-building aspect.
Another example, one of my favorites and mentioned many times by me and my ex-colleagues, was a 'ham book'! So we worked on a company that produced meats. So, food and bev, and one of their kind of flagship products was a ham, you know, like sliced ham. And it had this packaging, right? And I knew what the packaging looked like because I, it was one of Scandinavian companies – I've seen it in a shop.
So I did my research, I went to the shop, I took pictures from every side, and then we went back and we did the value prop, which looked like the packaging of the ham. So, it had the cover that looked a little bit like ham, you know, with the nice plastic rim. And then every page was like a slice of ham and it had different value proposition text on it. So again, a wild, wild receivable, that, because just something different but still overly professional, to the point.
And you know, when you're kind of thinking like that, you can make kind of everything look and sound sexy, you know? If it's someone who produces metal rods, you know, we made a really cool installations, just because we were creative, and thought outside the box. So I think it is really, really important and then that consistency has to flow to, you know, whatever we do, right? So it's not about the campaign, it's not about Pursuit, it's about everything. So, the perfect place is where we have visual identities or key visuals that every time anyone touches an account is on the same template.
It's small things – but it really makes a difference that they know that you are organized, and you are thinking about them in kind of a consistent manner. And not everyone just trying to contact the customer or partner or whoever we targeted, kind of on their own accord. I think visuals first – so important.
Declan (strategicabm) – No, I love that, Kat! I love that and I love those stories, and whether it's the, I know that 73 Questions from Vogue and those Hollywood stars walking around their very, very lovely, you know, Manhattan apartments, whatever.
And I love that idea about the ham, as well, and obviously making that. Yeah. Because you know, ultimately, you know, people are going to, you know, they're going to receive a whole lot of literature from different companies, and you could have standout.
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – That's right.
Declan (strategicabm) – And personality does help you stand out, and character, and even, you know, humor used very, very well can help us.
Well, one thing we talked about earlier on, and you mentioned, was about artificial intelligence, AI. And I was just thinking that obviously, you know, four years ago when I started this podcast, it wasn't on my list, that question; three years ago, it wasn't on my list; even two years ago, or one year ago. But now it clearly is, and I'm asking all guests now a little bit about AI and what their thinking is, and where they're taking it and using it, et cetera.
But what’s your AI story? Both your own and perhaps a little bit towards ABM. What are you seeing? What are you doing?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – So I'm a bit of a tools nerd. So when ChatGPT came out, I was the best friend with it, the day one I think. But in all seriousness, big fan of AI and, kind of, I guess when we talk about AI nowadays, we think ChatGPT, right? Which is just one tiny use of, you know, what artificial intelligence can do.
And as much as it's helpful for kind of everyday work, to summarize things or just as a kind of sounding board, to speed things up. I use AI a lot to, exactly that, to summarize, you know, bigger pieces of content, just to get a gist of something. But when we talk about ABM, or kind of marketing in general, I think it's more on the analysis, tracking, intent, and then kind of spitting out what's important.
So all the things that we are now manually, meticulously trying to, you know, jot down in Excel, I think that's where, and I don't think that tool yet exists. So if anyone is working on that amazing tool that will take all the manual work from us, let me know! But I think that would be like a breakthrough for ABM and especially when it's connected with the whole Account team.
So typically we would have, you know, we have tools for Sales, we have tools for Marketing, we have tools for intent, and I'm trying kind of to bring it all in the middle. But having something very holistic that works for everyone, and spits up different type of dashboard or information depending on where you sit within the Account team. I think that would be like a big next thing for ABM and AI.
Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, I mean it's a tricky question, so let's see what the audience say. And I know that we've got a dedicated team at the agency ourselves working on AI and all the different use cases, and across our whole spectrum of ABM work. So it's, and as you know, you wake up in the morning and you open LinkedIn and there's a new ABM tool, right?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Yes!
Declan (strategicabm) – So it's quite, it's relentless. It's a relentless game and it's just trying to work out what can help you do a better job more efficiently, more effectively, and better for your customers.
Right. Just one question when I was, you know, lining up to contact you, to interview you, one thing that kind of jumped out at me was that you kind of, you've been on this journey yourself. We talk about ABM as being a journey, right? But you, yourself Kat, you've been on a journey and I just wrote down from your LinkedIn profile, hopefully I got it all right. All the different places you've worked.
And you just mentioned that you've been working for Dell, you've been working for Capgemini, you're now at Universal Robots in, um, in Denmark. But I wrote down that you've been obviously from your native Poland, you've been in Cork in Ireland, you've been in Glasgow in Scotland, you've been in London, you've been in my hometown of Madrid, I think you've been in Berlin as well, you mentioned to me, I think? And now you're in Odense, if that's the correct pronunciation, in Denmark!
So I mean, I'm not sure how many I'm counting here. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, no, I dunno, 8 or 9 places! And, what does that, I mean, how has that made you a better marketer? I mean, I can understand it can make, how, you know I've, I've worked with lots of kind of third-culture kids over the years and I've worked in many countries as well. But from a professional point of view, how does that do, how do you think that's actually made you a better marketer?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – There's a very interesting short story behind it. How does my traveling affect my marketing? So apart from, you know, switching accents, which is a headache, and doing a lot of code switching, because you kind of have to fit in and be part of something, I actually discovered recently we were doing some talent tests, and things like that where, what were your predispositions? And it, and it seems like ABM is life. That's another T-shirt, Declan!
Declan (strategicabm) – I'll make a note of that!
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – 'ABM is life' – and I joked about that with my colleagues previously that when we were like really into something, you know, ABM is life. But it appears that for me it really is, because I'm naturally drawn to individualizing things, kind of personalization, analyzing people in situations. And of course that, the part of my life when, you know, I moved quite a lot, it helped me understand all the cultural nuances.
And sadly I have not lived in the US, just kind of traveled. So not enough to, you know, really sink in, that part of the world – or Asia. But I got Europe covered, I think. 'Cause it's one thing working with someone and another thing really living the same everyday life they do to understand the way they work, the way, you know, you should approach them and, how to make best of what you do together.
So it really, it doesn't only make you a better person, I think, but certainly, you know, when we talk about work, it does make you a better marketer. You appreciate the different nuances and you understand that people can be different, and that kind of leads you naturally to personalize your approach, not only at work but also in life.
Declan (strategicabm) – No, I definitely agree and I think, you know, a lot of, just thinking of some of the work that we've done with different customers where they say to us, 'Look, okay, fine, we're going to be targeting the United States or United Kingdom, but we've also got, you know, significant markets in Germany and France, in Italy. Can you help us in those areas?' And then that's when, as you said, the appreciation of different cultures, what works, what doesn't work, what vehicle, going back to what you said about visual storytelling, is it the visual element that's going to work better? Is it the written element? Do they need to be more formal, less formal, et cetera?
So I think all those things that you learn by being that kind of international citizen that you've become, albeit the European version. Yeah? From the west coast of Ireland all the way over to Eastern Europe, in Poland. You've got all that covered, as you said.
So let's just finish off, Kat, with a few questions. What I call kind of rapid-fire ABM questions. I like to ask every guest at the very, very end, and I need a rapid-fire answer from you as well. Okay? So let's just ask four questions, okay? So the first question I'm going to say to you is: What's your greatest ABM learning?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Mmm. My greatest ABM learning is that sometimes it's okay to stop. If it's not working, it is better to stop and pick up somewhere else rather than keep going.
Declan (strategicabm) – I like that. I definitely agree with you. I definitely agree with you on that one.
What's… what do you think the hardest part of ABM is?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – It's hard to pick one... and there's so many things, especially when you start, but I'm going to say that – especially when you start – there's just so many stakeholders at play that it can get a little bit overwhelming, to just juggle all those, when you're starting and making sure you're talking to the right people that you are reporting into the right places. That is probably a very difficult part at the beginning anyway, and later on as well!
Declan (strategicabm) – Well, and it goes back to your point at the beginning, really, about the fact that you explain things, you go away, you turn your back and then people have got a different understanding, right? So if you've got multiple stakeholders, it makes that job even harder, right?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Yeah. And people, you know, change jobs and new people come and then you start again.
Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, yeah, yeah! And what do you think is the greatest misconception that’s out there about ABM?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – I don't think I'm going to say anything different than probably many of my, the previous interviewees, is the Demand Gen aspect. I cannot shake it off. That is just ABM perceived as a Demand Generation tool. I cannot find a bigger misconception there.
Declan (strategicabm) – That's a good one. Okay, we'll put that on that list.
And finally, we're recording this on a Monday evening from a wet Madrid, and I'm not sure what the weather's like there for you, but…
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Same!
Declan (strategicabm) – Same! So let's fast-forward to Friday. And you mentioned that you just finished a week, you've had a great week and you're ready to close your laptop down and kick back and have a coke or beer, or whatever, whatever you drink over there in Denmark. And an old colleague calls you up from your Capgemini days and says, 'Kat, I've got to present on Monday morning to my new CEO an ABM strategy. Please tell me something I've got to mention!'
So what's that one thing you tell them to mention in that presentation?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Hmm. Don't over-promise – and by that I mean small start, and ensure that you're not the only one pitching, but there is your Sales counterpart there that also believes in it.
Cheers!
Declan (strategicabm) – Cheers! That's a very good, I mean very, you said two things, really – really good.
So one, obviously, is don't over-promise, so set expectations, which is really important with ABM. 'Cause otherwise, if you don't set expectations, I think, like you were saying earlier, it takes time, so people will be expecting you to deliver miracles, and not too many people can produce miracles.
And number two, obviously make sure that you're sharing the responsibility with your Sales colleagues, so that, um…
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – That's right.
Declan (strategicabm) – ... they've got some skin in the game as well, basically. Right?
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Exactly that.
Declan (strategicabm) – Okay, perfect. That's a great way to finish, Kat. Well Kat, thank you so much for sharing your ABM journey with us today and sharing your insight on Customer Expansion ABM. I wish you and the team there at Universal Robots every success for the future.
Katarzyna (Universal Robots) – Thank you! Thank you. Been a pleasure. Thank you!