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Jack Rawlings (strategicabm) – Welcome to another episode of ABM Under the Hood. My name is Jack Rawlings and I'm your host, and I'm joined today by my colleague Fes. Thanks for joining me, Fes.

Fes Askari (strategicabm) – Hey, Jack, thanks for having me on. Very excited about this series.

Jack (strategicabm) – Good stuff, good stuff! Well, today, Fes, we're going to have a conversation about specifically Sales and Marketing alignment. 

Obviously, your role as the business's Director of Sales and Strategic Accounts, so you're very much, kind of, in the thick of it when it comes to understanding the Sales mentality. And particularly with regards to the businesses that we work with.

You're having conversations sort of on a day-to-day basis with the Marketing stakeholders, but also the Sales stakeholders, right? So, you know, when it comes to, kind of, defining Sales and Marketing alignment, what would you say, what's the sort of key things that we're thinking about and talking about there, in terms of Sales and Marketing alignment?

Fes (strategicabm) – Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think there's two perspectives on that. There's the internal view, which essentially boils down to shared business objectives, commercial goals, targets, understanding your product market fit, defining your Ideal Customer Profile, target account lists. 

You know, getting that alignment on the foundations of your go-to-market strategy, which can be challenging in different organizations. But that's really something to consider at the early stages, it’s just talking the same language, using the same kind of objectives, KPIs. And setting up the programs that you're running for success from that internal alignment perspective.

I think secondly, there's an external perspective, which is, you know, alignment on the customer experience. So, how does a customer engage with you from a Marketing and Brand perspective? How does that flow through to Sales, Customer Success? 

Really, it does boil down to creating a great customer experience that drives growth and retention. So, I think you've got to consider it from both angles.

Jack (strategicabm) – I like that. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And you mentioned there at the start, you know, around that kind of initial phase of setting up an ABM program, kind of setting those joint objectives between Sales and Marketing. I think that's so important. 

We often, you know, we talk about trying to get Sales buy-in, but actually it starts before that, right? It's not about getting that buy-in kind of retrospectively. It's about, you know, setting that kind of groundwork and laying the foundations at the beginning of the program, making sure that you're kind of working collaboratively at the start – so that you don't have to then sort of retrospectively go back and look for that buy-in from a Sales team. 

So, you know, in terms of objective setting then, how would you recommend teams go about that?

Setting those kind of joint objectives between Sales and Marketing? What's the sort of process that people should be following?

Fes (strategicabm) – Yeah, again, there's different levels to this. From a revenue perspective, most teams – or the way that we do it here – it’s probably looking at the end goal and working backwards. You know, reverse-engineering your kind of revenue objective. 

Easier done when you have historical data to look back on; conversion data, you know, deal velocity, things like that. Which essentially is why you need to track everything and document everything. 

The more data you have, the better quality, the better informed decisions you can make around, you know, where to spend your time and resources, what converts, what works, doesn't work from a Marketing perspective – and from a Sales perspective. 

So really look at your end goals and then work backwards. I think this also – with an ABM lens on it – you also need to think about the program type that you're running. You know: What's the objective for a particular program? You know, we talk about One-to-many, One-to-few, One-to-one; there's some gray lines between those types of programs. You know, but really the program needs to be defined by your business commercial objective, you know, and that needs to be driven by not just Sales and Marketing, but other stakeholders in the organization. 

And that really helps you set up the program for, you know, success. And you also need to think about key considerations, like when you're setting your program objectives, you know, is it a program designed to build your brand in a specific market, build your reputation and credibility with a new set of accounts? Is it existing customer land-and-expand? What are you really trying to deliver here? 

Just saying, "Oh! We're going to do ABM!" That probably isn't the right starting point. It's more about: "We have this business objective that we're trying to achieve – ABM is a fit for this. Now, how do we reverse-engineer the right structure to our program, our goals and approach?" 

And then I think, outside of that, you probably also have to look at the kind of internal strengths and limitations that you have, particularly when it comes to maybe your teams, your ABM maturity, your brand in the market, your existing, you know, kind of brand value, credibility, and other areas like your technology stack. 

So, you know, you can see some great examples of programs out in the market, but they are probably at a certain level of ABM maturity. And, you know, to replicate something that someone like Hillary at, you know, Snowflake is doing on day one, is going to be pretty, you know, disingenuous to other stakeholders in the business, because you're just not there yet. 

If you're starting your ABM program from scratch, you need to take the right steps, build up the foundations and get to that. So really understanding your strengths and limitations early on is key to this. We tend to call it ABM readiness. And we kind of try to understand where teams are at the early stages before launching into a full program. Does that help answer the question?

Jack (strategicabm) – Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the two points that are quite important there that you mentioned, you know, actually getting wider business buy-in or wider business sort of sponsorship alongside that kind of Sales and Marketing alignment is so fundamental, right? 

You know, it's easy to say that you've got, there's a view on the programs from the wider business, but how invested is that, you know, wider group of stakeholders in the success of the program? 

Are they kind of involved on a weekly, monthly, quarterly basis having conversations with you? You know, what sort of stake do they have in the outcome of the program? 

I think that in itself means that then, you know, by its nature, you're going to get more alignment between Sales and Marketing because there's a common goal there that the business is focusing towards. So therefore Sales and Marketing are going to, you know, going to need to come together on that.

Fes (strategicabm) – ‘Common goal’, I really like that term, having a common goal. ‘North Star’, you know, kind of ABM metrics, and something that just gets everybody on the same page, without being overcomplicated and sharing, you know, information that sometimes distracts people from the key objective.

Jack (strategicabm) – Yeah, absolutely. Yeah and I think, you know. You mentioned as well in terms of kind of understanding where you're at, you know, at a given time in terms of your sort of maturity, maturity as a business or maturity as a specific kind of Marketer, ABMer. You know, that as well, makes such a huge difference to the types of objectives that are realistic and feasible with, you know, with the kind of ABM program that you're looking to start. 

So I think having a level of self-awareness, I suppose, with regards to where you're actually at and what's achievable with the timeframe, the budget, the level of maturity that you've got, I think, is super important as well. And you are not then going into these conversations with Sales stakeholders or wider business stakeholders, kind of promising things that's not going to be doable within the parameters of where you're at. So that, you know, having a realistic view of things is also super important, I think.

Awesome! 

So, I mean, you are certainly very close to the kind of ground when it comes to speaking the language of Sales teams and understanding the sort of Sales mentality. What from a Marketer's perspective are some of the sort of considerations that people should be thinking about in terms of how to talk to people, how to talk to the Sales team, how to converse with the Sales team? Is there anything that kind of maybe turns off the Sales team? A, kind of, a bit of a red flag to them? Is there anything that Marketing teams do or say that maybe they, you know, should be trying to avoid when it comes to having discussions and conversations with Sales teams?

Fes (strategicabm) – Well, I think it's about really being clear about the Sales team's priorities and objectives, and aligning with them on that. 

It may not be the only thing that you work on in an ABM program. You might have a slightly broader view from an Account-based Marketing perspective, but really understanding the Sales team's objectives, their priorities, that's a key starting point. And also bringing data and insight to the table, I think, is really valuable for Sales. 

You know, Sales generally should love to understand their buyer, what makes them tick, how they perceive value, what's happening in the world of the customer. You know, Marketers should be thinking about, you know, market research and insights, Account-level insights to really bring that to the table and help fill the insight gap that you may have around a set of accounts or a market, an industry, executives, you know, depending on your program type. 

So definitely, leading with insight is great internally, as well as with the customer as well. So Marketing tends to, you know, have great campaign-engagement data, but we should also be able to bring insight to the internal stakeholders about the market that we're going after, and often that can lead into Sales having better-quality insights when they're talking to the customer as well. 

I also think that, you know, you need to approach this as a partnership. And that's where you have the concept of, you know, a joined-up Revenue team, you know, and really thinking about joined-up objectives and priorities as we've discussed at the outset. 

You know, time is money when it comes to the world of Sales! You only get eight hours in a day. You know, you need to make the most of those. So, we need to make sure that Sales teams, you know, the majority of their time is spent on having meaningful conversations and ultimately selling, right? So, you know, you want to limit distractions with them. So when you do have sessions with them, you need to be really clear about the agenda for that meeting, what you'd like them to contribute, maybe providing them information up front, a questionnaire so you can get the right level of information back from them. Because Sales is essentially, it's quite reactive, right? 

If you have a really good-fit opportunity land on your desk in the morning, then you may need to prep for a meeting that afternoon for it. So you need to be able to be slightly reactive to things when they come in. 

And so, you know, Marketing I think needs to understand the value of time for Sales teams and making sure that they use their time most effectively. A lot of the ABMers that I speak to, the great ones actually, really do respect that. They understand – "Look, we don't wanna take up too much time from Sales, so we need to be prepared!" But, sellers also need to understand that to get value and impact from these programs, they need to come to the table with good-quality insights and they need to, you know, really share in a meaningful discussion about the objectives, about the customer insights, everything that they're seeing from the market as well. So that's definitely a partnership that you can discuss with Sales at the outset.

Jack (strategicabm) – Yeah, I think that's, yeah, really really good points there.

And you know, when it comes to, you know, Marketers having those sort of conversations, trying to uncover those insights from Sales, I do think there is a tendency to try and, you know, to get as much as possible from them, eke out as much. Because they are the, you know, at the coalface; they are the ones that are having those conversations with customers, right? 

And clients and prospects, and so there is that sort of tendency there. But equally, I do think that good ABMers, good ABM Marketers will focus on what they can also find out from other sources as well, right?

It's not just about taking up the Sales team's time and trying to kind of distill all of that into a campaign or a message. It's also about taking insights from other sources, whether that's intent data, whether that's, you know, insights online, desktop research, whatever it might be, to kind of compile a sort of bigger-picture view of the account or the target market. 

And so, you know, I guess there's a few things that we've kind of touched on there is that when it comes to things that Marketers and Salespeople and people setting up ABM programs generally should avoid, kind of pitfalls. 

But is there anything else that you think is something that people should be aware of? Anything that's sort of a common pitfall when it comes to securing that Sales and Marketing alignment?

Fes (strategicabm) – Yeah, I think, you know, just again, being really clear about objectives with Sales, you know, what's coming up for them in the next 3, 6, 12 months. 

Seasonality can be an issue for Sales as well as, you know, your financial year – are you at a closing end-of-quarter, closing end-of-year? These are high-pressure times for Sales teams – sometimes – unless they've had a, you know, a steady ship, which currently, you know, is a little bit unusual given everything that's going on. 

So really understanding their context, understanding their objectives, understanding the urgency or the pressures that they may have. Again, pitfalls in terms of just not having these conversations early enough. 

I think you touched on that when we were discussing it earlier, but, you know, really getting into a conversation with the Sales team as early as possible about the 'why': Why ABM is the right fit. What are the key objectives? What do we think is potentially the value to the customer? What do we think is potentially the right ABM program type? And really helping them to understand that context from an ABM program perspective. 

And then lastly, you know, I think in terms of pitfalls, it's having an understanding that you may have to negotiate for some things when it comes to Account-based Marketing, right? You have to negotiate for time with the Sales team. You may have to negotiate which accounts need to be included in an ABM program. You know, Sales may have their view, you may have a view based on your account selection criteria. And we need to find some common ground there. 

Not every account in the Sales team's list may be in the ABM program, for various reasons. You know, ICP and the value proposition and things like that, and similarly, not every account that you want in the ABM program may be, you know, a good fit for the Sales team right now. 

So you need to find that kind of, you know, common space where you've got alignment on your Ideal Customer Profile, and what value customer makes sense for an ABM program, and then you really start to define that joined-up target account list for ABM. So those are some things that I would think about getting ahead of and, you know, kind of watchouts or pitfalls that you need to consider.

Jack (strategicabm) – No, that's really good, yeah. And I guess then, you know, on that sort of theme, in terms of kind of the joined-up thinking, we talked about objective setting and goals, but what about measurement? 

When it comes to conversations that you have with the Sales team, what kind of metrics, what types of, sort of KPIs and measurement tools should you be thinking about in discussions with them? 

Because obviously from a Marketing perspective, there's so many different kinds of, you know, data sources and campaign data that we can kind of draw on, and get a bit of a picture, a bit of a snapshot of what's going on within an account or in a market. But at Sales, what do Sales teams care about? 

What's something that Sales teams would benefit from seeing on a regular basis from the Marketing side?

Fes (strategicabm) – Yeah, I think that's a good one to break down at a couple of different levels, really. I think Marketers definitely need to learn the language of Sales and sales metrics and KPIs, you know, Sales care about metrics like deal velocity, pipeline coverage, Average Customer Value – ACV, you know, really understanding how they're going to have conversations with their best fit opportunities. And so, you know, not just leads, but opportunities, right? 

So, you know, from a Marketing perspective, you have your kind of – every Marketing team has their own kind of internal language for marketing and, you know, it depends on which world you come from, Professional Services or SaaS and things like that. But essentially, most Sales teams probably talk a very similar language. 

You know, they're talking about similar metrics across different types of industries and verticals. That language is the language of pipeline, normally. And you need to understand how to align with that language and then create those shared kind of objectives and KPIs. 

So if you don't know what ‘deal velocity’ means, I think, you know, it's a good idea to go and find out because that is definitely one of the metrics that ABM aspires to improve on, right? Average customer value, you know, definitely increasing that share of wallet. Those kind of terms are things that Marketers need to understand – and many do, nowadays. But there's, you know, depending on where you are in your career, you might want to go and have a think about, you know, how much do I really understand the world of Sales and the language and terminology that they use to define their pipeline objectives, the business growth objectives, things like that. 

And then I think another layer on that is it really depends on who you're talking to in the Sales team. It could be Sales leadership. It could be, you know, individual contributors, or the sellers themselves. Within that you have different types of sellers: you've got solution consultants, you've got technical Sales, you have SDRs, you have AEs; you know, different types of sellers within an organization, or across different parts of the business perhaps.

So you need to know who you're talking to – what's their role, what's important to them, what value they can bring to an ABM program. You know, if you're going to run, perhaps, an Account-level workshop, you know – who do you need in that workshop? You know, what type of individuals. Maybe you don't need an SDR, but maybe you need an AE and technical Sales. You know, things like that, and then maybe you bring in a, you know, senior peer to influence that workshop. 

Outside of that, you know, in terms of talking to Leadership – and you're building the internal business case for ABM, you know – like I said you need to understand the key metrics and understand how they've developed their business objectives, 'cause they're reporting that back upstairs to the Leadership team or the board or whoever they report to, right? So, the better you can align with that language, the better you can create this joined-up view – maybe a dashboard that helps to report the value of the program that you're running back upstairs to the people that, you know, ultimately approve what budget goes to which programs, right?

Jack (strategicabm) – Yeah, absolutely. I think that's it. Yeah, some really good points there, and it's, I think, super important to make that distinction between different seniorities and levels within not just the Sales team, to be fair, but also the Marketing team and other stakeholders in the business, right? Because, yeah, there are different considerations, different priorities depending on that sort of level of seniority. You know, someone in that kind of VP C-suite level isn't going to be too concerned about the day-to-day minutiae of, you know, impressions and clicks and CTRs and things like that. They're going to be caring about those sort of more, you know, near the revenue level metrics, right? So yeah, absolutely. Taking that into account, I think, is really important. 

Fes (strategicabm) – So Jack, you run a lot of our ABM programs working with clients. And I thought I'd flip it back to you and ask, in your view, what metrics can you use to align Sales and Marketing teams? What do you see in your experience?

Jack (strategicabm) – Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, so I think the sort of general framework of the three Rs – Reputation, Relationships and Revenue – is a good lens to view metrics and reporting through for Marketing and Sales teams. But obviously, depending on the types of metrics that you're kind of, that sit within that, is who's going to be more interested in that – whether it's Sales or Marketing. 

So, realistically, the Sales team are going to be much more interested from that kind of Relationship's point onwards. 

The Reputation stuff is certainly of some interest, in the sense that they want to be aware of it. They wanna be thinking about how potentially that's going to develop into a future conversation or a future meeting, or whatever it might be. 

But, really, the kind of juicy bit for them is going to be when it gets to that point of having those relationships starting, having those conversations starting, the meeting bookings, the face-to-face engagements, all of that kind of stuff. And that's really the stuff that you're going to be tracking at that Relationships level. 

And then when you get into that Revenue stage, obviously this is where it's more about those metrics that you were talking about before in terms of things like Average Customer Value, deal sizes, the time to deal, time to opportunity – all of those maybe more about pace and speed, and how ABM can shorten sales cycles. That sort of reporting and those sort of metrics, I think, are of real interest to them. What would you say, you agree on that front?

Fes (strategicabm) – Yeah, I definitely agree. I also think that you need to consider it from a program type perspective. So, what type of ABM program are you running? One-to-many, One-to-few, One-to-one? 

We touched on that a little bit earlier, but like you said, Reputation and Relationships is often a key objective at the One-to-many level. Particularly at One-to-many, it's more involvement with the SDR teams, so understanding how they work, and the tools or the messaging that they might be using. 

At One-to-few and One-to-one, you're probably looking at working closer with the more strategic sellers in the business. So understanding how they report and potentially, again, with One-to-one, it's normally quite an extended sales cycle. So how do you map and measure engagement over extended periods, when you've got a higher deal value, complex sales cycles. Is it number of net new contacts with an existing customer account? Is it how engaged the account is over an extended period? How many meetings are being booked, event invites? Things like that within that single account that they may be working on. 

So, there's different measures at different levels of the programs that you might be running. But I think one key consideration is what we call benchmarking. And I know you and Josh in the Agency have done a lot of work on benchmarking, to essentially take a snapshot of engagement in terms of whichever set of accounts you're focused on at that point in the program, and understand the starting point.

Because I think that's often a step that's skipped, is that everyone looks at reporting, but they don't take that view at the beginning to understand the strength of Reputation or Relationships that you have at that point. It may be nothing, it may be zero! But you wanna be able to demonstrate that back in 6, 12, 18 months' time and you're saying, "Look, this is how we strengthen relationships in this set of accounts. We've generated X, Y and Z number of conversations." That kind of approach. I mean, maybe you could talk a little bit more about benchmarking there.

Jack (strategicabm) – Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, no, you're, you're spot on. From my perspective, benchmarking, as we term it, is probably one of the most important aspects of success, or seeing success in an ABM program, in the sense that it can actually... it's what demonstrates the success. 

Without that kind of snapshot of where you are at a certain moment in time at the beginning of the program, or a certain point throughout the program, you're not measuring the progress, you're just measuring incremental points in time. You're not measuring where you've actually gone from and to. And I think also the benefit of doing that, as well, is about expectation setting, right? So when you have clarity at the beginning of a program around whereabouts on those three Rs your accounts are. 

If you're looking at, say, a One-to-many program targeting a hundred or so accounts and you've got zero Reputation with any of them – if you've never really been in front of them at all – it helps to then make that case internally to the wider businesses and Sales team as well, about what's going to be realistic and the timeframes that you're going to be looking at in terms of delivering those sort of meetings, conversations, all of that kind of stuff. I think that is often a point at which people fall down, is this expectation that you can start from a running start, almost, and immediately you're going to start seeing those sort of Relationships and Revenue metrics coming in with an ABM program. 

And the reality is, if you're starting from a point of zero Reputation, it's going to take a bit of time and a bit of momentum to get to that stage of actually building those Relationships and that Revenue, and getting through.

Fes (strategicabm) – Exactly! 

Jack (strategicabm) – So I think it's important to set those expectations with that snapshot of where you're at, at this moment in time, to then be able to demonstrate what's possible, what's feasible within 6, 12, 18 months – whatever it might be. So yeah, I think benchmarking is super important.

Fes (strategicabm) – Yeah, I speak to a lot of teams that may be launching into a new market, or a new geography where they don't have that brand awareness or brand penetration in the market, and it's important to set the expectation there. And then also really thinking about how you can share that information internally with the right stakeholders in the right format. Like you said earlier, it's not about getting to that level of marketing operations, KPIs, but showing a slightly higher-level view of what's really important.

So, I think benchmarking, being able to show progress, and then also reporting back on the right metrics is really key. So again, that ties back to alignment and making sure that Sales and Marketing are focused on delivering the right level of information back into the program, so you can really capture that in a meaningful way, and share success when those conversations happen. When you get the right opportunities into the pipeline, you can really demonstrate that joined-up effort. And that's the real value and impact of ABM.

Jack (strategicabm) – A hundred percent, yep!

One final question, a bit of a kind of esoteric one, I suppose, for you, but it's something that I'm probably going to ask a few people on this series. 

Do you think, when it comes to ABM, do you think that the phrase, the term ABM, is a bit of a blocker in itself to that Sales and Marketing alignment?

Do you think that potentially, you know, there are other terms that people are talking about in the market, right? ABX and all these sort of things. 

Do you think that that's where the industry is headed to ensure that kind of Sales and Marketing alignment? Or do you think that it comes down to the things we've discussed today, better communication, better objective setting, all of that kind of stuff?

Fes (strategicabm) – A little bit of both, probably. 

I think from my perspective there's definitely a need for an Account-based Marketing strategy that forms part of your Account-based strategy that enables your Account-based Experience or ABX program, right? 

From a Marketing perspective, like I said earlier, there may be activities from a marketing strategy perspective that Sales aren't as involved in. They may get involved in key elements of insights and execution, and certain areas of the program, but they're probably not going to be involved in running your LinkedIn campaigns and who you're targeting or, you know, sending out direct mail or, you know, all the marketing-type activities that form your Account-based Marketing program. 

So, that changes at different levels. You know, there's probably more Sales involvement at a strategic level when we're talking about One-to-one versus, you know, more execution at a kind of One-to-many type program. So, the needs change. But I would definitely say, look, you need to use the language of your business to get that alignment internally, so, you know, how you talk about it, I think, you need to kind of decipher that based on what type of persona you're talking to.

Essentially, you're talking to an internal customer, and you need to understand their persona. You need to understand their kind of language that they use – just like you do when you're developing your Account-based Marketing or ABX program. You need to do that, you know, persona development and insights to really understand the market and the audience and the accounts.

You need to do a little bit of that internally as well. Some teams have just grown up in a more digital-first world. Other teams are more traditional. That can change by industry as well. So, you know, some teams call it Key Account Marketing or Account Development. Some teams call it Account-based Marketing; modern teams call it Account-based Experience. I don't think that matters as much as making sure that you have real clarity on your objectives, and that you really set the vision for the program with the team. You can call it pretty much anything you want. You can just make up a theme for the program, but you need to really cement the vision internally about what you're trying to achieve and the roadmap for how you're going to get there.

Jack (strategicabm) – Awesome! Yeah, I think that's a great answer, to be fair. And yeah, certainly I don't think that we are at the stage yet where the term ABM is going to go away anytime soon. It's certainly not the case that people are, you know, are looking for an alternative there. 

Well, I think for now, that's been a really good conversation. Thank you so much for your time, Fes. I think lots of really actionable tips and insights there for people to kind of take away and think about in terms of how to really kind of generate that Sales and Marketing alignment, particularly in that early stage with the objective setting, speaking the same language as the Sales team, all of that kind of stuff. 

We will be sharing a link to a resource which kind of puts this into a bit of a summary, and digest the key points that Fes has shared today. And we'll be linking to that in the description and the notes. So you'll be able to access that on the ABM Under the Hood portion of our strategicabm website. 

But Fes, thank you so much for your time today, and looking forward to potentially catching up on a future episode about another topic.

Fes (strategicabm) – Sounds good. Cheers, Jack.

Jack (strategicabm) – Thanks very much.