ABM and the Voice of the Customer

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Okay, today, I'm joined by Taylor Young, who's the Principal ABM Strategy and Customer Experience at Terminus. Taylor, thanks so much for joining us today.


Taylor Young (Terminus) – Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be talking with you today.


Declan (strategicabm) – Fantastic. Well, we've been chatting back and forth for a while now, trying to arrange this interview, so I'm delighted that you can finally join us today. 'Cause I know you've been very busy there, and we're going to talk a little bit about what you've been up to. 

But, let's just talk a bit about a few things, really. Let's talk about, you know, Terminus. Obviously, I know Sangram very well, and he was a guest a couple years ago now, actually, on this podcast. And he's gone on to some really interesting things, launching the whole, kind of, GTM movement, et cetera.

But tell me, when we were talking, you explained to me that, A) You're a power user at Terminus, which obviously is really important. B) You're also, kind of, almost like the voice of the customer there, internally, within Terminus. And then, C) You were talking to me that you, which I thought was quite interesting, that you, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't report into Marketing, but you were reporting into the Chief Customer Officer. Is that still the case? 

Taylor (Terminus) – Yes. Yes, that is. So, yeah, it's- 


Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, so that combination, obviously, of being a power user at Terminus, representing the customer – being the voice of the customer, and also working directly for the Chief Customer Officer. But, while at the same time, what's also interesting from from your job title when I introduced you, you clearly want to have that Account-based Marketing focus also mentioned in your job title. So, how does that all work together? 


Taylor (Terminus) – Yeah, it's been an interesting ride. So, I was previously a customer of Terminus, originally, and a power user at that company. Really learning and using the platform to the best of its ability, kind of stretching it to the absolute max of what we could do with it. 


And that's where I got into really talking to the people at Terminus as one of their advocates and coming in, and pushing them on, like: "Hey! You know? If the product could do this – it'd make my life a little easier." Or, we came in and did a case study with them as well. So, I got to meet a lot of the people at Terminus in doing that. And then come on board and work for them.


And the vision in being a power user and the voice of the customer was really to have someone who could come and be an advocate for, like, they lived the life of who the customer is. And they, Terminus, as an organization, has given me this platform to say, like: "We want you to come in!" 


And whether that's how I work with the Product team, how I work with the Customer Experience team, or how I work with the Marketing team, come in and say: "Hey, as the primary user, in my experience, this is going to make my life easier. This is going to make my life harder. This is what I actually care about, this stuff, not so much." And be able to be that for our customer base. 


Declan (strategicabm) – And so leading on from that, then, Taylor, obviously your role there, if I sort of write it down, define it, it's obviously to help the customer get the most out of the software. And, obviously, representing that customer internally, within Terminus. 


And I think you have mentioned to me before, when we were chatting, that I think you said that the biggest struggle you see, is goal and strategy misalignment. Tell us more about that, because obviously people are pumping a lot of money into this software or any type of software in this space. And if you are seeing that kind of goal and strategy misalignment has been the area where they're struggling, why do you think that is? And what kind of tips can you give people who are listening or watching? 


Taylor (Terminus) – Yeah, absolutely. So, there is, the goal and strategy misalignment conversation comes a lot from, I think this myth that ABM equals advertising, which it doesn't. And then advertising equals brand awareness, which it also doesn't! 


So, what we see a lot of times is, people come in and they start, kind of, in their comfort zone of just running brand awareness, or they stay in this zone of like, all our advertising program is just brand awareness. This is all it's for, this is all we need it to do.


And then, a couple months down the line, your team is like: "What revenue have you generated? What pipeline have you generated? What actual business impact have you created with this program?" And all you've run is brand awareness campaigns. And brand awareness is really important and it has a place, but if you only stay in this lane where your goals or pipeline and your strategy is awareness, you're not connecting the dots. 


So, that was really the origin of what I've created at Terminus – understanding that our customers and people running ABM in general, it's still a relatively new concept. Even though it's been around for 20 years, for the masses it's relatively new. And we know B2B is kind of slower to pick up on some of these things than B2C programs are. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah.

Taylor (Terminus) – So, really being able to, coming in as a customer of Terminus, I could actually say: "Hey, when I was a customer, it would've really helped if I had this kind of guidance and this kind of content." And so I came in and I built that for our customers. 

Declan (strategicabm) – And so, going back to the origins or your origins there at Terminus. I mentioned at the beginning that obviously Sangram Vajre, who obviously has been – or was, rather – the face of Terminus from its founding, really. And I think, what I found interesting about you, Taylor, is that you've kind of, you know, you've almost replaced the irreplaceable! 

And obviously Sangram will probably listen to this podcast and have a little wry smile, but you know, I see you everywhere now. I see you on podcasts, I see you on interviews, I see you talking about, you know, different things that you're doing and sharing, et cetera. So, tell us a little bit about that journey from joining Terminus to becoming, somewhat, the face of Terminus. 

Taylor (Terminus) – Ah, goodness! So, Sangram's incredible and not replaceable. So, thank you so much for the compliment there. I think he's just an incredible thought leader and founder. And if I could reach an inch of his success, I would, you know – that would be a dream! 

But, so I don't know if I'd say 'the face of Terminus', there are so many really incredibly talented people at Terminus. What I am really grateful for is that they've given me the opportunity to be the face of the user, to be the face of the individual contributor.

So, so often you see the CMO gets to talk a lot, or maybe the VP of Marketing that's running these programs, they get to come in and they get to say things at kind of this strategic, philosophical, higher level. And what I was craving as a customer is someone who's just done it before and could tell me how to do it. And who's really been in the weeds. 

And so, that's what I'm trying to do for the industry. And that's when I come on stage and speak, I'm speaking to the individual contributor. When I come in on webinars, when I come in on podcasts, I'm talking to the people in the game, doing the work, making it happen. And so I've been really excited to have that kind of viewpoint and perspective. 

Declan (strategicabm) – And just out of curiosity, what would you say has been the impact? I mean, what I mean by that is, what stories are you hearing back from customers about the impact that your work has done? How have you made life easier for your customers? 

Taylor (Terminus) – Absolutely. It's interesting, because our customers have come up to me after – customers and non-customers – I spoke at B2BMX in Phoenix, and had so many people come up afterward and just say, like: "Nobody's done it this way. Nobody has, in a 45-minute talk, given me so many actionable things to actually walk away and do step 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5." 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. 

Taylor (Terminus) – And, it's tough. It's a tough thing to balance, because every business is different and unique. We've created – and I know you and I have talked about the ABM playbooks for our customers – and it's not really a path of, "Hey! Just if you do this exactly, you'll be successful." There's no way to say that. 

But what they're chock-full of is these "if, then" statements: If this is what's going on in your business, then you can take this approach. And by the way, it's a learning process. So, just watch what happens, pivot as necessary, make sure that you're constantly learning and you will be successful, because it's a successful framework that's repeatable. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. No, I love that "if, then" – that's, I think I'll have to, we'll do a big flash tile and promote that "if, then" quote! 

So, you mentioned a little bit earlier there, Taylor, you said 20 years. Obviously ABM is celebrating 20 years, and some people think it's a couple of years old. But yeah, their story goes back to 2003, actually. A previous guest, Bev Burgess, came up with the term after a dinner or a lunch with some marketers from Accenture and Unisys. So, if you want to hear a bit more about the history check that episode out, Bev is a real powerhouse in the ABM world. 

But, it's celebrating 20 years. What's your take on how it's looking and what's your take on where it's heading?

Taylor (Terminus) – Hmm. I think it is stronger than ever. It's becoming more, wider and broader than ever. It started in the B2B community. Like I mentioned, B2C is usually way faster on a lot of these things. And then B2B picks up the pieces, and particularly tech, kind of, is usually more forward-looking. 

So, it's really saturated in tech, but I'm seeing it a lot more in financial services. We're seeing it a lot more in manufacturing. We're seeing it in these other businesses that usually take a little while to come around. And these companies are having massive success using ABM programs. 

Where I think it's heading, where I hope that it's heading, my vision of ABM is really that it's just really good B2B Marketing strategy. And so, my hope for ABM as a strategy, as well as technology, is that it becomes more of the default. That it becomes a part of the main process. 

One of the things you can't let go of: you can't let go of your CRM, you can't let go of your marketing automation platform and you can't let go of your ABM program. I want those things, those three things, to be in the same breath – because I do, really, in my soul, in my heart, I've seen the success of it, and I want that success for other people. 

Declan (strategicabm) – But, if we said that 100 is complete penetration and zero is no penetration whatsoever, where do you think ABM is in that kind of spectrum in terms of adoption by B2B companies? 

Taylor (Terminus) – Hmm. I think that that's a tough question. But it is, I think in the software space it's a lot higher. I could put it in maybe the 80% range. If you're talking about manufacturing, I could put it in 15 to 20%. I think there's a huge opportunity there in manufacturing, in financial services, in healthcare services. There's a really major opportunity in those other markets. 

Declan (strategicabm) – No, I think I'd agree there. And why do you think that the tech companies have just, or the SaaS, the tech, why do you think they've been early adopters or, relatively early adopters of ABM compared to these other more established industries? 

Taylor (Terminus) – I think it's out of necessity, partially, because these tech companies that sell into these really large established, there's so much competition in tech. Whereas, when you get into manufacturing, you may have a couple of leading manufacturers.

My background's in manufacturing, I worked in flooring. And so, B2B flooring, you've got like five major names that you're competing with, whereas B2B tech, the barrier to entry is lower. There's not as much brand loyalty in tech. And you also have people who put a lot more stock into digital touchpoints of ABM. And can really adopt faster, and be a little bit more agile when it comes to using technology to achieve their goals. 

So, I think that's a big reason why it was easier to come in, in tech. But, we've really got to, I think manufacturing's going to be huge in the next few years. 

Declan (strategicabm) – No, I think it's a fair point. And I think, if you think about the origins of ABM 20 years ago, it was companies like Accenture, Consultancy, Unisys, IT, computer-based companies that were doing it. And then, obviously, they've migrated, they have come, you know, it's obviously ABM has now blossomed and bloomed, et cetera. 

So, let's just talk about, we were talking before about the importance of content when we were chatting previously, and we were exchanging notes about, you'd written an ABM playbook, I've written an ABM playbook. I think you've also written ABM Flywheel, I think it's called, that you created as well, you drafted. 

And obviously, these are really important pieces of content to help people kind of learn more about ABM, learn more about the process. As you said earlier, the kind of "if, then" statements, et cetera. Tell us a little bit about the process that you go through. How do you, how'd you work out what to write, what subject to write about? How'd you go away and investigate it and, you know, what's behind kind of creating these, kind of, rather major pieces of content for Terminus? [Are you ABM ready?]

Taylor (Terminus) – Yeah, absolutely. So, what we created was the Revenue Flywheel, which is more the framework, the concept. And then the ABM playbooks, which is really the meat of, how do you actually do this? 

And the ABM playbooks, in totality, are over a hundred pages that we've written. And they're very specific and they're very actionable. So, they are currently only available to Terminus customers, because they're very specific to using the Terminus platform in conjunction with your other tools that are available to you, in order to execute on certain strategies.

So, when we started, like I said, the origin of them is kind of just, man, I really wanted something that would've helped me as a power user. As someone who's in a company that kind of was just like: "Oh yeah! ABM is, ABM sounds like a good idea. Taylor, figure out how to make it work for our business!"

And that was a lot of consuming content, and best practices from sites like yours, and information from people like Sangram and understanding it. But really, still having to bridge the gap between those concepts and the action that I needed to take in the tool. And putting all those things together for myself. 

So, when we started, a lot of it was: These are the things that made me successful. And then, of course, there's a lot of brilliant people at Terminus, who also had other opinions, who'd worked with many different types of companies. So, I had my perspective from my tech company, this is what worked. And then I was able to pass that around and really get fantastic input and different ideas from all of these experts inside Terminus, hear stories and case studies from advocates of Terminus, people who've used and really done a great job, and seen a lot of return from the platform to make this really robust set of playbooks that are very specific. 

They've got screenshots, where you click the button in Terminus, in order to achieve that goal. And like I said, a lot of it is "if, then" statements. If this is how your business is set up, then take this approach and see if it works. And if it doesn't, here's how you can pivot.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. Well, I recommend everyone to take a look at these, if they can get access to them and, and to feedback to Taylor. I'm sure your LinkedIn inbox will be filled with people asking you questions

So, technology, obviously – Terminus is a technology company. We mentioned Sangram at the beginning of the show, obviously one of the co-founders of Terminus. I remember when I was talking to him a couple of years ago now, one thing that kind of jumped out, and he was very, you know, he's an incredibly honest and transparent person. And one thing he said to me at the time was, he said: "You don't need technology to do ABM. What you need is a very sound strategy of who you're going after, how you're going to engage them, and what you're going to do." 

So, why do you think – and that's what, I wrote this thing the other day, which went down very well on LinkedIn, a lot of people reacted to it – I wrote this thing around the 10, you know, myths and misconceptions about ABM. And one of them was the fact that, a lot of people think that the technology companies invented ABM. What, do you think, why do you think it is that technology has captured so many ABM headlines? And where are companies attempting ABM, do you think, and where are they going wrong with some of these technology choices? 

Taylor (Terminus) – Yeah, that's a great question. And I want to agree with Sangram on that point that you made at the beginning is, and I say a very similar statement, I didn't realize until after, that I started saying it. When I rolled out the ABM playbooks, internally. So, I trained the Sales team, the Marketing team, the Product team, as well as the Customer Success team, for eight weeks on the ABM playbooks and this strategy to help make our customers successful.

And, in doing that, the very first sentence in that, as well as, usually when I'm on stage, is letting people know that ABM technology – regardless of which vendor you have – can scale a bad strategy just as quickly as it can scale a good one. 

So, the purpose behind the playbooks is giving you a starting point of a good strategy. And so, knowing that, I know a lot of people think tech, you know, the tech created the industry; it didn't. It allowed it to be more accessible, I think is the word. 

So, you had talked earlier, Accenture, IBM, some of these massive companies could do One-to-one tech, really well. Because their deal sizes were in the millions of dollars and they could afford to have one person work on named-account ABM, and do that incredibly well and do it manually, and it have enough margin in the return for that to be an effective strategy. 

I think the technology has made it more accessible to more companies at a lower cost, by creating this scalable platform. Where you can do One-to-few and One-to-many and still feel very bespoke, and get better results from those interactions. 

Declan (strategicabm) – So, and the point around why you think that there's this kind of misconception out there in the market, do you think that's just because, companies like Terminus have spent more marketing dollars than anybody else? 

Taylor (Terminus) – I don't know. So, to Sangram's credit, he builds industries. And, I think that that's just incredible marketing. I think, I've listened to him speak, I'm a part of Peak Community. I've worked with him for a while now. And he has commented on this kind of category building, where you come in and you, even your competitors, you give them a platform, so that the entire industry can grow and live together. And that's what I think has been really powerful. And has also contributed to that misconception. 

But, when you're speaking to people who know what they're talking about in the industry, you'll hear the same thing that Sangram and I were just saying is, a lot of times we suggest that you try a hands-on ABM program before you get into the platform, and just verify some of these assumptions that you have about your customers and what they care about, and how it works. Before getting into scaling that program that's going to set you up for the most success. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, I think that's a very, very sensible choice in terms of piloting first, going small, then obviously worrying about – and I think what we tend to say here at the Agency, we tend to say: Strategy first, technology second. And I think that technology has come on leaps and bounds, and it's a real enabler. But just make sure that you've got a very sound strategy first, before you move forward and then use the technology to deliver the strategy, not vice versa. 

A couple more questions, really; I was just thinking about the, your background a little bit, and I know we were talking about the importance of mentors, and the people that you learn from. And I'll say on this podcast, we talk an awful lot about journeys and we also talk about ABM being a journey. But, equally, every guest has been on a journey from their B2B days, their Marketing days, through to being ABMers. 

And I know you mentioned that, particularly, we talked about Corrina Owens, who was also a previous guest on Let's Talk ABM. And I think, also, Justin McDonald as well. You mentioned two people that made a big impact in your professional life. What would you say, if you had to pick one thing from each of them, what was that one thing you'd take with you as you continue on your journey? 

Taylor (Terminus) – Hmm. That is tough! So, Corrina and Justin are both incredible people in incredibly different ways and they're so talented, and I have so much, I'm so grateful for what they've done for me and for my career and personally, we're all really good friends to this day. 

So, if I had to, narrowing it down to one thing is not the easiest. What I think makes Corrina so incredibly special as a mentor and as an ABMer in general, is empathy. She has such incredible empathy for other people that, when you're doing ABM, you have to really be customer-obsessed. 

And 'customer-obsessed' is this awful term that people put in their LinkedIn profile, but they may not actually mean it. And, when you have the level of empathy that she has for understanding people, understanding what they're going through, being really thoughtful about how to speak to them, what they need, that's what makes her such an incredible leader, an incredible friend, and a really incredible ABMer. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Hmm. 

Taylor (Terminus) – Um. Yeah, go ahead. 

Declan (strategicabm) – No, no, no! Just, I don't know whether Justin might feel a little bit left out if you don't mention Justin. 

Taylor (Terminus) – I will. Yes, Justin is incredible as well. Justin is the reason that I'm at Terminus. I worked with him, he was the founder of – anybody that doesn't know – he was the founder of RambleChat and Terminus acquired RambleChat, was an incredible part of our success and program in our ABM program before I came to Terminus. 

But I also was very, like: "Hey guys! If it did this, that would be really cool. If it could do this, it would be really helpful. If it could do that..." And they started creating all these product enhancements while I was still a customer. And I called Justin and I was, like: "Hey, I'm thinking of making a change." And he was, like: "On it! Absolutely right now, I'm going to have you come and work for me." 

Now, Justin's no longer with Terminus, he is a serial founder. That is his role. That is what he's incredible at. And the point I'll make specifically, what makes him great as a founder and a leader, is this ability to recognize talented people, empower them, and kind of just get out of the way. 

I've never had a leader, above and beyond any leader that I've had, I've had incredible leaders in addition to Justin and Corrina, but this ability to just really, really empower someone and let them do what they're great at and not stand in the way of that. I think it's really unique. 

What he did for me at Terminus, even coming in as the girl with blue and green hair, every single conversation that I was on in those first few months that I was working there, he said, he was like a hype man introducing me, saying, like: "This person is brilliant. They have good ideas, they have something worth listening to." And so every 'room', virtual room that I walked into, there was already this allowance of people to hear the ideas that I have and, and being a woman in business and a woman in tech, that doesn't always happen. 

And so I give him a lot of credit for creating this platform for me, inside of Terminus, so that people could then recognize and allow me to work on these projects and, and be the voice of the customer inside the business. It's really powerful. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. That's lovely to hear, really. And I think, I think you mentioned a couple of really important things there about being, being a woman and being a woman in tech as well. And we can't ever forget that, you know, that sometimes you have to work harder than men. And that's not how it should be. 

But, let's just celebrate, I mean, I think we've – I think that one of the things I've been loving about, I've loved rather, about doing this podcast is just the amount of amazing, you know, women ABMers that are in this field doing amazing Account-based Marketing. 

So, just a few more questions just to finish off with, Taylor. When we were talking previously, there's something, you said to me, kind of really struck a chord, actually, you said to me: There are three Cs that might stall your ABM program and I kind of made feverish notes about this. You said creative, content and customer. So, like the three Cs of stalling: Creative, content and customer. Can you break those down for me? 

Taylor (Terminus) – Yeah, absolutely. So, we came up with the three Cs just understanding from my own experience trying to scale an ABM program and what we see from customers as well. So, creative, content and customer. 

The customer is actually, more so, Ideal Customer Profile, understanding and really knowing what your customer needs, what their pains are, what they struggle with, how you can solve them. The different segments of your ideal customer. If you don't really understand that and have enough empathy to understand exactly your personas and your accounts, and what they need from you, then you're going to start off on the wrong foot. You're going to get the wrong message in front of them. And then you may be able to say: "Look! Oh! ABM doesn't work." Whereas, in reality, what's happening is, you don't understand your customer, your message isn't landing. 

The other two are a little lesser, but still really important in not stalling out when you're trying to really ramp up is, content and creative. And so, if you understand your customer and you understand their pain, you know, there's a lot out there. There are studies out there that say, like, 85% of the buying decision has been made before they're talking to someone at your business. 

And so, you have to build this digital relationship in advance, of them creating a human connection with your brand. And in doing that, unless you're educating and helping and providing this ability to connect with your brand through content, then you're really not ready to be engaging people online in this Account-based way, [what does ABM readiness look like?] because what value are you giving to them without some level of content being available?

Especially if in a One-to-one, that's a big lift, right? But, if you're looking at One-to-few, having it broken down by industries or company size, however you're breaking that down, making sure that your content isn't generic, but you have it in these lanes that speak to this more specific group of people that you're trying to help. 

And then, creative was the pit that I fell into as a customer, is realizing, like: "Oh! I'm so excited. I know my customers, I have fantastic blog and webinar content to send them to. I am getting started on this program, we are ready!" And we got out of onboarding and we were, like: "Oh! We don't have a graphic design process, or a team in place that is prepared to make all these different versions that we wanted to test, of these beautiful animated advertisements." 

And so, that was the challenge that I ran into was, we are ready, we're done with onboarding, we're ready to go with all of these brilliant plans for ABM. And we have that graphic creative element missing and we tried freelancers, we took a few months and we hired somebody in graphic design; we tried all these different things. But, thinking about that in advance and making sure that you've got that covered is really going to help you not stall out at the beginning of your program. 

Declan (strategicabm) – No, I think, I think that's, I think that's what we see that, as well, actually the creative side is the part that actually gets, that gets overlooked the most, and people kind of get bogged down and they, kind of, like, you know, create a whole bunch of banners and all the different, you know, sizes and all that kind of stuff. 

When actually, it's actually more about the creative experience and the, what we like to call the Account Experience. We want people to go on to experience about your brand and your value proposition. 

I'm going to just have some rapid-fire questions, just to finish off with now, Taylor. You've been on this journey for a while now, ABM journey. What do you think your greatest learning has been from that journey? 

Taylor (Terminus) – Oh, goodness. I think the greatest learning is that you have to really know your customer, is whether the program's going to work or not. If you go to most companies and you ask the CRO, the CMO, the CEO, the CCO – you can ask them all who your best customer is and you might get four or five different answers. 

One of the ways, one of the things that I learned early in our journey, we had a really fantastic deal in healthcare and we normally never sold to healthcare. Somebody sold to healthcare, massive deal, it closed really fast, it was really easy. And so, the Sales team came to Marketing and said: "Healthcare is our new segment, we're going all in on healthcare!" 

And we did, we went all in, but we saw the writing on the wall. It was not our segment, that was kind of a fluke. It wasn't well-researched, it was just a gut instinct that, "Hey, we should go all in on healthcare." And so the biggest learning being really to research and understand your market. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah.

Taylor (Terminus) – And, not let your ego get in the way. If it's not working, you let the data say what it's going to say and pivot and put your resources where they're working. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, I love that. I love that piece of advice. The hardest thing, what's the hardest thing about ABM? 

Taylor (Terminus) – Buy-in. Oh, goodness. The hardest thing about ABM is getting buy-in and having people not get this, like – it's a long-term strategy, and so, not letting people get this 'shiny object' syndrome, get a little weak in the knees, that we're not 'proving' value fast enough. Getting people to stay bought-in long term, so that you can really see the success of the program. 

That's the most difficult part is, you know, especially in the economic state that we're in right now, there's a lot of pressure: revenue, pipeline, we're looking at sources that are generating and, you know, well, you get a lot of this pushback right now: "Well, the ABM program influenced that, but it didn't create that opportunity – it didn't do this or that!" 

And just, I feel like a lot of ABMers right now are on defense and it's a tough position to be in; to defend influence versus attribution when so much of this isn't, it's attributable in a way that's, like: "Hey, if we didn't do it, we wouldn't have seen this success." But it's not in the same way that the old-school way of thinking of, like: "This is a sourced lead and this is a generated account, or generated opportunity." So, I think that's the biggest struggle in ABM, right now. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, that's a good point. I think, yeah, and trying to get them, make sure you have that buy-in at the beginning and I like to tell people, make sure that you define what ABM means for your business and what, and define what success looks like.So everyone says: "Okay, now I understand what your success is. Yeah, we'll have that. Okay, great." 

'Cause otherwise, if there's a mismatch between what you call success and what other people call success in the business, people are going to come knocking on your door, asking for their money back! 

So, two final questions. So, what's that one piece of advice you would give to somebody who's looking to launch an ABM program? What's that one thing you say? Don't forget to... ? 

Taylor (Terminus) – Oh. Don't forget to get buy-in across the different teams that need to participate in this. I think that, a lot of times, Marketers can buy a technology and maybe it's not necessarily, if Sales doesn't really want to participate or Customer Experience doesn't want to participate, they're, like: "Okay, it's fine. We can do it on our own." 

ABM is not an on-your-own kind of a program. You're not going to have the level of success that you are expecting and hoping to have, without some teamwork here. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. So don't, basically, don't go out into the woods on your own, basically. Right? It's not Marketing-only. 

Taylor (Terminus) – No, no it's not. 

Declan (strategicabm) – And then, I also, a little, talking of the woods and stuff like that, a little birdie told me that you're up to something with my old friend, Corrina Owens. What, can you tell me what you're up to? What are you planning? 

Taylor (Terminus) – This is breaking news! You are the first to know, Corrina and I are starting a podcast together. It's called, "Direct with Corrina and Taylor". It is specifically to highlight individual contributors in the go-to-market space and talk about the success in programs and projects, and how they've really done it. 

It's super actionable. It is a way to celebrate people who are often overlooked and not celebrated. So, we are really excited to be putting that together. 

Declan (strategicabm) – And do you have your first guests already in the can? Are they already recorded and all? You have? You can't tell me any more? 

Taylor (Terminus) – We've got several really exciting guests lined up. We do have our first guest that was recorded this week, So, depending on when this comes out, we should have, be announcing and getting our first episode out really shortly. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Fantastic, Taylor. We're looking forward to it. I'm a big fan of yourself and of Corrina, so I'm sure it'll be amazing. And, listen, just thank you for your time and for sharing your ABM journey. And all the best to you and the team there at Terminus for the future. 

Taylor (Terminus) – Thank you so much. I appreciate it. This has been a blast. Thank you. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Thank you.