From ABM to ABX

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – So today I'm joined by Evett Baranov, who's the Global Digital ABM Lead for EMEA and APAC at Workday. Evett, thanks so much for joining us today. 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Thank you so much for having me. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Well, let's kick off with a question around Workday's approach to Account-based Marketing, which I think is a little bit novel in its approach. I think if things are still as they are, you have two independent account-based teams, an ABM team and then an ABX team. Would you mind sharing with the audience what are the key differences and perhaps the focus of each one? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yeah, yeah, sure. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. 

So yeah, so we have two ABM teams at Workday. One focuses on the One-to-one approach to Account-based Marketing. So essentially they have a small list of accounts determined with Sales, and these accounts are a mix of short and long-term opportunities. So their task is really to create personalized and customized experiences for Workday's top prospects and customers. 

This is where I actually started my ABM journey was in the One-to-one team, and this team is currently global with regional leads running the programs across our key regions. And so their goal is to create what we call stage one opportunities, which essentially means there is a viable opportunity and it's been verified by Sales. As ABM One-to-one has evolved and I mean ABM One-to-one program has been around for probably six years or so. Now, these goals have really evolved over time. Like everyone, when they start the ABM program in their organizations, you know, you're starting with those smaller goals and then as the programs become more robust, you really can create more comprehensive goals. So these goals, you know, really vary determining where these accounts are in their Sales journey. 

But essentially some ABMs actually focus on deal support, not just getting those opportunities across the line, but actually helping them close the deals with those accounts. And then there's also potential for upsell opportunities with customers. And so historically the main KPI was getting these deals across the line in terms of being verified by Sales. 

As well as the One-to-one team, I currently sit in what's called the ABX team, Account-based Experience team. And essentially this team is separate to the ABM One-to-one team. We are really the umbrella to the Regional Marketing engine. We are targeting a select subset of targeted accounts that are based on Sales and Marketing intelligence data, which are most likely to convert in a given year, as well as being the biggest potential accounts by deal size. 

We add, as I mentioned, additional support on top of the general demand generation programs that the regions are running and we're not clashing in any way. So we don't actually remove the accounts from the regional programs. We're complementing everything they're doing in the region. So it's really running alongside our peers. We're also a global team, but we're largely based in the US and myself outside covering EMEA and APAC from London. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Yeah, that's very comprehensive. Let's just break down a couple of pieces there if you don't mind. So the One-to-one team, it's really interesting what you call about stage one opportunity. So therefore the ABM team delivered the opportunities into the Sales leadership. Is that right? And then the Sales leadership say that's fantastic, we can take that forward. Is that, is that how it works? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yeah, I would say it's sort of a partnership. So it's been verified by both Marketing and Sales, but essentially it's a point in the journey where you know there is enough engagement from the account, there's enough interest. 

There's been an initial conversation with our Sales development reps to suggest that there is a viable opportunity there. And for us in the Marketing organization, that's always been one of our key goals was just to get it to that stage and then really pass it over to the Sales team and the pre-Sales team that sort of then continue that sales journey. 

But yeah, really at that cusp of the journey where there is a strong enough interest to suggest that they are interested in one or more of our products. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Does that suggest then that the majority of the One-to-one work that you do is with new logos or is there also a customer expansion element as well?

Evett Baranov (Workday) – I would say majority is net new logo. That's historically where we've been involved. I wouldn't say necessarily that's the easiest way to do Account-based Marketing, but essentially that's where we started was with net new large cold prospect accounts. But what's happened over time as our customer base has grown significantly is that there’s been an ask from the business that Account-based Marketing support customer upsell opportunities. And so now we're starting to see a bit of a shift where we are being more involved in the customer space. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Yeah, and then what was interesting I think as well, Evett was you, you mentioned there, it's not just about the kind of classic ABM approach, but it's also about Sales journey, it's about deal support, it's about, as you just mentioned there, it's about upselling to customers. 

So it's great to hear that. I'm hearing that more and more that ABM teams are getting involved in deal acceleration, Pursuit Marketing is often called, or Deal-based Marketing as well. So I think it's great to hear that as well, really. And then just in terms of the, the element that you work in, which ABX, which is an interesting use of that term, obviously to kind of differentiate it from the One-to-one program that you are running, I think it's interesting to say that you sit on top of, you're almost like a layer on top of your demand gen that you don't, and it was interesting you said that you don't interfere, but you actually compliment. 

Could you perhaps for the audience, how do you go about not interfering, i.e. how does that relationship work and the conversation work, that you are not interfering for want of a better word with the existing programs that are going into the accounts? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) - Yeah, that's a really good question, It's constantly a question I get internally because it is difficult, you know, as being in such a large organization, there is just so many different Marketing teams, everyone's doing so many different activities and we're really trying our best now to really create what I would say is a journey. 

So it's a little bit clearer to everyone how everyone is contributing to these accounts. But what we tend to say with ABX is really the way we go to market in terms of our channels is slightly different to the rest of the organization. So specifically we use demand-base for our advertising purposes. No one else currently in the organization is using Demandbase for programmatic advertising. So we are targeting them with a different channel. We use different vendors, so we're sort of targeting them in a different way and we're already using messages that have been created by our Solution Marketing team. 

So we're not creating the content, we're using existing content. And essentially this content is quite high level, as you can imagine being a team that supports a large amount of accounts and regions. We can't be as personalized as the One-to-one team. So the messaging normally consists of, you know, persona-based messaging, industry-based messaging. 

So again, I feel like how we're complementing the regional programs there is that we are not being too direct in what we're saying, right? We're really complementing that over broader approach, you know, that persona-approach, industry-approach, thought leadership-approach, messaging. And so it's really, again, complementing with what the regions would be doing, which at times could be more direct, more personalized to those accounts. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Yeah, I think it's good to hear, and I think it's good to hear how you can have the two operating in tandem, right? And I think there's always this debate about, you know, demand-gen, Account-based Marketing, but here you are showing that you can do both at the same time. 

Let's talk about account selection, which I know you know is a little bit or many people can find it difficult to do and to do well, but I think you've got something a little bit different there at Workday. Let me just see if I get this right. 

You have something called WAM, which is not the pop group with George Michael, but rather you work, there's, there's no H in it. So basically it's Workday's Addressable Market. Talk to me about how you go about account selection and what this is about your WAM, your Workday Addressable Market. 

Evett Baranov (Workday) - Yeah, yeah, then that's a really good question. 

So essentially Workday's Addressable Market is the broader program that we have at Workday in terms of being able to identify the accounts that are most likely to be potential Workday customers. 

So as you can imagine for a region this can be hundreds and hundreds of accounts, and this is what the, Regional Marketing teams, all the other Marketing teams, they are targeting this very, very big broad list, all these potential customers for Workday. 

And essentially what we do in ABX is we try to take a portion of it. So as I mentioned earlier, we are really targeting the accounts that have the potential to be the biggest and largest opportunities for Workday. And essentially we call this the top 15% of accounts because essentially what we've seen is the top 15% of accounts actually generate 50% of the revenue for Workday globally. 

So no other team at Workday at this point is targeting the select subset of accounts. And so we are making sure those accounts are getting the incremental love and attention they deserve because everyone else has just got so big scopes and you know, objectives that we can really tailor our approach on those accounts that are really showing intent and engagement and interest in Workday's product and services. 

So what my team has developed and deployed in building our account selection model was actually based on what's called a FIRE score model. And that's essentially fit intent, relationship and engagement. And that's through account segmentation via Demandbase. 

And these four dimensions are quantified and rolled up into one score, which is easily ranked and interpreted by a broad Sales and Marketing audience. So this is really how we sort of, I guess, stand out from the crowd in terms of really being methodical in choosing those accounts. And I mean this has taken years to develop. It's not something, you know, that has happened overnight. 

My team, you know, we actually have someone who came from Demandbase really have that expertise to build this program, which is incredibly impressive. But just to explain a little bit about what each of those FIRE definitions are. So fit essentially qualifies how well a prospect matches the ideal customer profile for a given product, but doesn't indicate if the prospect is in-market for a Solution today. So it's sort of like an indicator intent helps us understand if a prospect is researching keywords related to a specific line of business. 

Relationship data contextualizes where a prospect is in its journey with Workday and engagement allows us to see which hot accounts these are, the accounts they're spending the most time interacting with Workday through a multitude of full first-party data sources. So the dynamic data that powers FIRE scores comes from first-party sources connected with Workday, CRM, as well as third-party sources via Demandbase. And this FIRE model helps us as a team as well as sellers. 
So we do also provide this information to the Sales team to identify segments of accounts by using one score to represent the revenue potential and readiness to buy. And that these segments driven by FIRE scores pave a path to highly calculated prioritization and activation of these accounts. 

So from an optimization perspective, Marketing now knows which accounts to heavily invest in right now and which to continue nurturing in less expensive channels for the future. And we've also been recently trialing as well as having this scoring model is having journeys as part of Demandbase. So essentially a journey model lets us see how ABX accounts are moving through various engagement stages. And I mean this very early days, we've just recently launched it within the ABX program at Workday, but this has been really well received because I think for marketers they really resonate with buyer journey models. And I think seeing it sort of in a visual sense rather than a score has really resonated better with our internal colleagues and being able to see that, hey, the progression is being made. 'cause sometimes with Account-based Marketing as you know, sometimes it's just the smallest of movements that, you know, creates impact or, you know, shows success.

So having it now in sort of a visual representation I think is being really well received because it shows that the smallest things we're doing is making impact, we are seeing more engagement from the account. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Well that's quite a summary really of how you go about it. And I've just been making lots of feverish notes here in terms of the FIRE score model of Fit, Intent, Relationships and Engagement. 

And as you said, you've been, it's a combination of first-party and third-party data, and then obviously the keyword then, as you mentioned, if that was obviously prioritization. So that's helping you to work out of that, of that WAM so to speak, that you have of, of those accounts, which ones deserve and warrant, as you said, investment now versus nurturing to keep them keep you rather top of mind while they're, while they're going on that journey. 

And then, so link to that really, I suppose is the question, this methodology and this process seems very, very, very, very novel in terms of its approach. What, what has been the kind of the downstream success of that i.e. the ROI, what are you seeing in terms of… from this innovative account selection, what are you seeing in terms of conversion rates, deal sizes? Can you share any kind of data there? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) - Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm happy to and yeah, I wanted to give as clear of a definition as well because it is so complex and you can imagine as well, when I'm talking internally to stakeholders, it takes them a minute to really understand the account selection model because it is huge. It's really impressive and you know, I'm happy to share as well after the call, like, so sometimes just seeing it in a visual format sometimes is easier for people to understand.

But yeah, with our ABX accounts and with I guess where we are today with Workday, we sell so many products now there's so many buyers out there, there's a higher level of scrutiny needed, in terms of making sure we're getting the right return on investment. So, you know, with the ABX program, we're really supporting these complex motions by being able to target the right messages to the right targets with the right solutions and being able, like I mentioned, to personalize it by industry and specific value prop propositions, beg your pardon, based on their intent profile. 

So we assume that important milestones are happening offline and without direct interaction. So our Marketing seeks to engage and educate in all channels. And so the incremental cost of ABX pays off in the direct impact of revenue of focusing on the most valuable Sales opportunities. 

And just to give you some stats, 'cause I know you'd like to hear them, ABX accounts are more than likely to have three times the larger account value size compared to the broader Workday's addressable market list. So as I mentioned, we are really targeting the biggest and larger opportunities. 

So we're three times more likely to have a larger deal size than those general Workday addressable market accounts. ABX has a two times win rate compared to general WAM account and general Marketing programs. And we have 44% faster conversion to stage one, which I mentioned was essentially where we qualify the account for a Sales opportunity for ABX accounts than the general WAM. So with all this data that's been put in place, yeah, we definitely have the metrics to support that this is working. 

Yeah, you know, it's obvious when you look at the data that we are targeting those accounts and they are the ones that are the biggest and potential opportunities. So kudos to the team there that, you know, we are being really good at finding those accounts. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – So three times larger deal size, two times win rate and a 44% conversion to stage one, which is the key KPI that you have there in your business. They're pretty, pretty impressive rates that even, you know, I've, I've talked to a lot of ABMers over the years and these are very, very, very impressive rates. So kudos as you said to you and your team for, for that. 

So that leads well… just a side question really. Are you, are you suffering from too much success? Are you, are people now, are, are people, are people now coming to you and say, do this, do this, do that, do that to this account, do that to this account? Are they, are you suffering from, Hey guys, look, you need to give us a bit of space or is, is that actually happening there at Workday? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) - That's a really good question. What I would say is that what we're facing at the moment within, so I talk in terms of the regional context because I I support five regions, is that, you know, all good and well that you guys, you know, have these fantastic stats and you, you know, you're creating this great impact, but what's that to do with me? What's that to do with my business? How's that directly impacting my region? How's that directly affecting my immediate pipeline? 

So what we've realized as well is that we need to talk in the language of the regions. I think from a leadership perspective, what I've mentioned today is very important because, you know, it obviously shows that you know that there should be an investment in the ABX program, we are doing the right thing, but when you talk to our direct stakeholders, I think we are working on, you know, doing a better job of, you know, showing more. I would say what they're interested in more is the tactical performance at this point is, okay, how is your advertising performing? How is your content syndication performing? All those digital channels that we target with ABX? 

I would say historically that's where the interest has been more on a tactical level in terms of, okay, how many clicks, how many people are we getting to the Workday website? And I mean, ideally we want to take it a little higher because as I mentioned earlier, we're really targeting accounts more holistically. We, you know, if we get a Marketing Qualified Lead that's fantastic, but that's not our priority, you know, we really just want to see those accounts engaging and moving through the buyer journey. 

So yeah, it's a great question in the sense of, you know, yes, great and all having these fantastic stats, but yeah, definitely when we're work working with different teams, especially with the regional field Marketing teams, I think we're, we're sort of needing to find that balance of actually showing, yeah, we are making impact, we are helping those pipeline gaps that you are having in regions, being able to have more of that local conversation because yeah, like I mentioned, those figures that I've mentioned are great from a leadership perspective back in corporate, but down in the boots on the ground, I think they're interested more in the weeds. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Yeah, no, that's, that's quite normal as well. Yeah. Going back to that point you mentioned around, you know, how you have your other programs, your demand-gen, etc, and ABM or ABX or other sits on top of that... that kind of incremental impact of the ABX program and link back to these to these numbers. I suppose my question would be how, how does that incremental impact get measured? The numbers that you shared, is that the incremental impact or is that the overall impact on those accounts? If you see... 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Overall, overall… so what I would say as well is that when we're doing our measurements, we're measuring as part of everyone's activities in terms of what everyone is contributing to those accounts. But in terms of our account selection model, it's suggesting, okay, we are picking the right accounts, we are, you know, engaging them and providing some incremental attention, but it's not to take away the credit from the regions as well because the regional teams are also creating those Marketing campaigns and opportunities. 

So we can't take full credit for example, that the account has become a stage one. Everyone has contributed to that goal, but at times, I would say in some regions, for example, you know, they don't have big Marketing teams, they're limited in resources and budget. So where I can make impact in those situations, that's where, you know, really we've created a big pulse in terms of I guess that demand-gen sort of activities perspective. But yeah, not to take away from the regional teams, everyone is contributing to those accounts becoming a stage one, we are just showing that we are picking the right accounts that are becoming a stage one opportunity, but in no way are we taking the full credit from what everyone else is doing. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Yeah, good, good point. And, and well shared. Let's just talk then about the ABX program there, I believe. Is it primarily a digital program that you're running or on top of what, as you mentioned before, what the Field Marketing and the local teams are doing? Is it primarily digital cosmetic as you mentioned? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – It's, yeah. Yes, yes it is. And like I mentioned, we're really targeting the right accounts at the right time and we're also trying to target those. I'm sure you've heard it recently, it's become a bit of a hot phrase ‘hidden buyers’ because with the general, I guess demand-gen programs, they're very set on their list, they're very set on who they're targeting. 

And so our digital programs is about, like the word ABX suggests experiences capturing people where you might not expect to capture them. You know, just being able to get them the right message at the right time at the right place. I just feel like just that mentality is a little different in the ABX team to the general demand generation teams where they really focus on the MQL and we sort of focus on, okay, have we had the engagement from the account? Have they moved through that bio journey? And we try to look at it more holistically. 

So for sure, I just wanted to make that point. But yes, we are a digital program and just to explain a little bit of… in terms of how that looks like, so as I mentioned, we obviously create the account selection process, we do the account selection program, we actually do it a number of times throughout the year. We refresh the account list, as you can imagine, accounts move, things change. So every sort of six to eight weeks we're constantly evolving that ABX list. And when we are creating our digital programs what we do first is really align to the key product motions for the business. 

So as you can imagine for Workday that's, you know, HCM and financials and then we can connect with the regions to understand their Marketing plans and priorities. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done in the background in terms of making sure that alignment is there and really, you know, catering to what overall Workday priorities are as a business and then specifically to the regions because there are certain nuances for each of the regions. 

And then we work with our Solution Marketing team to discuss key messages for these audiences. So like I mentioned earlier, we don't, we don't create things off the bat. We are not, you know, Content Marketing experts, we're not, you know, messaging experts. We really leverage our internal teams to provide that information to us. 

And essentially then from there we can create a Marketing plan with ABX using the tactics that our team leverages, which is largely programmatic banner advertisements that lead to personalized landing pages and content syndication. Those are probably our three key sort of tactics at this point. 

But in saying that we can do other tactics. So for example, paid social media, as I mentioned earlier, we do actually have a seller enablement program because, you know, Sales are just as needed in terms of having that access to that data and information. So our Sales development reps now have access to Demandbase to be able to prioritize their accounts when they're sort of, you know, chasing down their opportunities. 

A really random example that I did back in Australia was out-of-home there was a need to just get the messages out there directly to an industry sector. So I built an out-of-home program and direct mail, so we always leave room for test and learn because, you know, every region has different needs. We don't sort of limit ourselves, but I would say historically our sort of expertise has been in programmatic banner advertisements leading to those personalized landing pages and content syndication. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Yep. I love that test and learn, which I suppose is kind of one of the foundations of any ABM-ABX program, right? Is leaving some room to test and see what, what works. And out-of-home? Tell me a bit more about that. 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yeah, so it was definitely a first for the ABX team, essentially I learned about out-of-home when I was in the One-to-one ABM team. So essentially it means being able to create these display digital advertisements, in a physical sense, right? So the things you see in the airports at the train stations. 

And so essentially the example I did for out-of-home in Australia was we were launching essentially a new play with a key industry in Australia. And the team regionally didn't have the budget, were not really kicking things off until the new year. And there sort of was a need that, hey, you've got some of our accounts in your program, is there anything you can do to sort of kickstart this initiative before the new year starts? 

And so essentially this opportunity came where we could create some advertisements targeting this sector across airports and train stations and on buses in Canberra, which is the capital city in Australia. And again, a little out of the box, but it was so successful in the sense of just being able to directly get that message to the key audience. You know, just being able to sort of introduce ourselves to the market. It was sort of in alignment with our brand team. 

And yeah, it was a really obscure one. It's not something we do every day. It's very expensive. I wouldn’t necessarily tell everyone this is the secret to all our problems, but it was a great way to sort of kickstart our approach into this industry, really get our name out there and yeah, it was just a fun opportunity to be honest. I love a bit of brand advertising. You can't go wrong, right? You know, you're getting the message directly to those customers and prospects and yeah, it was quite successful actually. 

We did get even just senior stakeholders contacting Sales, being like, "Hey, I saw your ad at the airport." Like, I'd love to, like, I, we weren't expecting that in any way, but that was just, yeah, a really random opportunity that I did about a year ago. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – And out of curiosity, did you have any kind of CTA on these, on these adverts in the airports? Was there anything that they, like a QR code or something? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yes. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – They could, there was, yeah. 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yes. To the website. So we had built a sort of a customized page on Workday.com for this industry. And so yeah, essentially there was a QR code for them to go to that website. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Fascinating. I love that. I love that example. Particularly the amount of time people spend in airports and what, you know, train stations, whatever, 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Especially executives who we're targeting, right? So we're targeting C-suite executives as everyone knows, it's so hard now to get anything in front of these leaders and as you can imagine, they're constantly traveling, right? So it's a wonderful opportunity to get the message directly where, you know, they'll be, which is traveling. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – And out of curiosity, obviously Canberra, it is the cap, the capital. I know that in Trivial Pursuit, the capital of Australia. But why would you choose that city over Sydney or Melbourne? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yeah, so it's down to the industry. So we're targeting the public sector industry, so that is, the base is in Canberra, so all the senior executives, a lot of them don't actually live in Canberra, so they all fly through the airport. So that's why. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Understood, understood. Okay.

Let's just talk about personalization, which is a bit of a hot topic at the moment in ABM-ABX. What level of personalization do you achieve if you are doing quite a high level of digital into these target accounts, which can be in the hundreds or thousands I think, can't they, in terms of the number of accounts that you're looking to target? Where do you sit on the personalization scale? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yeah, that's a really good question and I think I alluded to it earlier. You know, we really have a team of six people running ABX globally. And as I mentioned, I think we've got about six or seven regions that we're supporting. So we really need to be scalable and templatized at times because there's only so much we can do and we have so many regions to support. 

So as I mentioned, we sort of create, I guess, broader messages in terms of being aligned to thought leadership, persona-based messaging, and industry-based messaging. So when we are creating our programs, that's where it sort of lends itself in terms of, I would say the personalization aspect is, you know, being able to create those personalized landing pages for industry, being able to dynamically create personal advertisements. So we're able to, you know, dynamically change them for the industry.

So again, this is why we have two teams and why the One-to-one team, this is really their bread and butter is they can really create those customized personalized programs for you know, a CIO at this company. Super specific, super tailored. We're just not able to do that with, with the team we've got. So that's how we sort of, I guess, align from a personalized standpoint is really through those industry persona and thought leadership style messaging. But yeah, that's sort of as far as we can take it. 

And really with technology that's sort of enabling us to be able to do that in a faster way. I would say historically, you know, if I'm creating multiple industry programs for a region was very manual, like for example, one for retail, one for financial services, one for tech and media. 

But with technology now I'm able to create it and make it more automated. So it's like you build one campaign instead of five campaigns. So technology's actually enabling us to become more personalized. But in terms of those messages, like I said, you know, we can't at this point directly target the CIO of this company. It's really on the account level that we're targeting and being able to use those messages. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Yeah, so basically personalized, as you said at the persona, industry-level, taking that through to a landing page, changing the experience based on who they are. And which industry they're working in. 

And where do... link to that idea about landing pages? Where do you sit on the whole gated, ungated, you know, some people are very nervous, traditional marketers get very nervous when they don't see a form fill. Where do you sit on that? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yeah, that's a really good question. Constantly conversation we're having internally and I don't know, you know, where it comes from maybe because for so long we've just been so drilled on MQLS and being able to see those lead capture forms. 

But like I said, we really try to be more holistic in the ABX team. You know, we know we're targeting the accounts, right? We know we're targeting a certified list of accounts, right? So we know we are already getting them in terms of how we're approaching the targeting aspect, right? So when we create these pages, we want to encourage exploration, we want to encourage C-Suite to come on these pages. 

And the reality is people do not want to be filling in multiple forms and really, you know, they might have one minute, maybe they have five minutes, maybe they only have 30 seconds. So while we have them, we just want to capture their attention and just give them what they need in terms of content. 

If they fill in a form, great. If they don't, then okay. So what we do is we try to have a little bit of a mix. But I would say largely we are really trying to encourage that exploration side. And this also talks to the earlier point I mentioned on hidden buyers, right? We are targeting the people we cannot see, we know we're targeting the account, we don't necessarily know who are the people that are coming through at times, right? 

And that's okay, we don't need to necessarily know because as you know, with, you know, a buying decision, there are a number of people involved and there's some people who are sort of involved in the front and some who are in the back. And it just happens that with our programs, we're just making sure that everyone has the opportunity to explore. 

But if you know, one person fills in the form the other doesn't, then you know, that's what it is. But at least we know we're targeting the account. That's my biggest point here is that we know the list, we know who we're targeting already by the account level. So that is enough of a tick box for the ABX team to be like, okay... we know we've got the account interested, okay, this is the sort of experience we can provide them and just look at things like I said, a little bit more holistically rather than this tactical view that a lot of regional marketers have. 

And demand gen leaders is, you know, oh, where's the impressions, where's the click-through? Like, I mean, that's all very important data, but you know, really the success of the program is looking at data over time and yeah, just being a little bit more holistic about things because this, I haven't got the stat on the top of my head, but I think it was maybe 20 or 30%. 

But essentially there are so many opportunities we get at Workday that at times have had little to no MQLs. So what I'm saying there is that there are accounts that still come across the line that have actually engaged with none of our, from a traditional sense MQL metrics standpoint. And it just shows that people are consuming things in different ways and you need to sort of keep the net quite open because there are… if you just focus on the MQL, there are people that you might be missing. And so that's again, down to my point of why we focus on the account level rather than on the individual. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – I think that's great advice Evett. I think in terms of hidden buyers or lurkers or as you said, they're in the backseat. They're not visible in the front seat, but they are playing a huge part in that decision. I think it's really important. And I think if you can surround the account or you can envelop the account with your experience, then it will filter through and it will have an impact. And as you said, the numbers you shared earlier are very good numbers, so there's no, there's no arguing with those numbers, right?

Evett Baranov (Workday) – No argument. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – No argument. So linked to that Evett. Obviously we all know that ABM / ABX takes a long time, but when we were chatting before this recording, I think you said that you had, you know, there is something, there are some ways where you can help people to, to show results, so to speak, while you are waiting for the bigger results to come. 

So what's, I suppose, what's the advice you would give to help people demonstrate that the program is working? Even if they're not seeing necessarily the dollar number? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yeah, yeah, that's a really great question. I mean I've been doing Account-based Marketing now for over five years and one of the big things I've learned, and I mean personally for me, is that ABM is generally seen as a long-term strategic program. It is not a quick win. 

If you need a quick win, talk to the demand generation team, talk to the paid media team, talk to the other teams who can deliver those quick wins. But from an Account-based Marketing perspective for me and how we've done it at Workday, it is strategic, it is long-term, it takes time, it takes effort. 

And I think internal Marketing is actually so crucial in saying this. How you position Account-based Marketing in the organization is key. Education is so key here because I feel like everyone's got such different views on what Account-based Marketing is. It's such a general term now. And so it's really important to really be clear internally in terms of what Account based Marketing means to you and to your organization. 

For us, it's a strategic play. It takes time, it takes a robust account selection strategy and a go to market strategy to build. And I think that's a key thing for me is just being able to position it in the right way. But in saying that though... in the early days, the smallest of things can be seen as a win. 

And an executive engagement, for example, for me, was such a crucial win in those early stages. I would say like a lot of ABM marketers initially, it's difficult to measure Account-based Marketing performance. Maybe it's not necessarily integrated with, you know, the general performance. It's not in the dashboards, you know, it's difficult to show success. 

And for me early on, those little executive engagements was just a really easy way of showing a win. Like, hey, we are being able to get those messages to that CIO or CHRO. Like, I mean, this is simple as just an email response. I've sent perhaps a direct mail campaign targeting a group of decision-makers at an account. One of them responds and says, oh, thank you so much for this gift. 

This was actually, I'm just thinking of an example I did during COVID, I did a wellness kit essentially being really top level, not focused on Workday at all. Just, hey, here's a bit of a self-wellness kit. I know everyone's going through a tough time, just wanted to, you know, send you a candle, a meditation book, just this little like gift hamper. 

And this account, the CHRO, again, zero to little engagement with the account, just appreciated the thought and sent an email. And for me that was already such a huge win because the Sales development rep hadn't gotten them, the general Marketing engine hadn't gotten them. I got them right because I was able to engage them in such a unique way, in such a personalized way, right? 

So what I would say for those earlier in the journey is definitely grab those little nuggets, be able to report on them. And especially executive engagement, I think that's such a key one because it's already hard enough to get decision-makers engaged. So anything counts. 

But also finally what I wanted to mention, you know, being able to try to be as clear as as possible with the activities you're doing, showing how everyone is contributing, being able to sort of create that map of Marketing activity, Sales activity, like I mentioned at Workday at least, we've got so many different teams, it doesn't have to all be on you.

And if you are fortunate to have other Marketing departments at your organization, actually paint the picture for Sales and be like, Hey, this is what everyone is doing to help move this account. Because it can be a lot of pressure on ABMers that it's up to you to really to, you know, spin that needle and really make the difference. 

But if you have, you know, other people around you, try and leverage what they're doing as well to paint a full picture for Sales. 'cause often or not, they don't actually know everything that's going on. Maybe they know about one or two events, but in reality they're not as familiar with the digital side, I would say. And so being able to paint that picture for them also I think really helps people understand and really appreciate, hey, everyone's contributing to this overall picture here. 

But yeah, I would just say, you know, just take those little wins where you can get them. I'm so sympathetic with anyone starting their ABM journey. It is really challenging. But where you can grab those wins and just talk about them and mention them where you can. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – I think some great tips there.

I love the thing about if you want, I mean, I just could imagine a T-shirt actually saying, ‘if you want quick wins, go talk to the other team’. You know, so I think that's what you mentioned about if you need quick wins, go talk to demand, go talk to paid media, go talk to whoever else. Sales ABM isn't the quick win team. I love that. I think the second thing you mentioned there about anecdotal stories, the fact that you could tell that story about you got the contact, you got the response from the CIO or the CHRO where the other teams didn't, those kind of anecdotal stories are very powerful, particularly at the beginning of an ABM program. 

So I think those are great pieces of advice there. Just a few more questions just to finish off with. 

One thing that you said jumped out before we were recording this was you said, ABMers need to be commended. They're doing such a hard job and it's such a tough job, rather, and no one is patting them on the back. And that really jumped out at me. 'cause I, yeah, I mean ABM is such a tough job. Not that any other job isn't, but clearly this one is a job over a period of time. You are working really hard. You, you're sometimes working against a lot of resistance in the organization as well. So tell me more about why you think that's such an important thing. 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yeah, no, thanks for asking that question. Yeah, I think I'm so sympathetic to ABMers it is tough because, you know, if you think about it, what really grasps, I would say Sales interest is events. And I think no one can disagree with me there. I don't know why. Maybe because it's an opportunity for them to be there, directly speak to their, you know, prospects and customers.

But really the events aspect is really what gets for, at least at Workday I see it, really gets all the love and attention because it's such a you know, it's just so much awareness. There's so much involvement, everyone's involved. 

And so ABM sort of gets left behind and this shouldn't be the case. And you know, especially in the early days of, you know, when I started the ABM program in the UK. Like I mentioned earlier, it was really challenging to show success and you know, if you don't have the right KPIs in in place, you're going to be hitting, you know, so many brick walls because it was just so difficult to sort of, you know I mean it was down to the strategy. We're targeting large net new cold, multimillion-dollar potential customers, right? Huge accounts, huge work to do. 

And so it takes time right to, to make it, and so, like I mentioned, it's just, you know, taking in those early wins, being able to, you know, use those executive engagement moments. But yeah, what I would say is that, you know, it takes so much planning, budget, thought to run an ABM program. We're probably like the thinkers in the Marketing organization because we're really taking the time to really understand these accounts. 

And I mean, sometimes you'd argue we know the accounts just as well as the Sales do. And so I really want to recommend anyone that's doing Account-based Marketing because I think it is a really tough job, especially for those who, a lot of times, actually hold multiple hats. 

I've met many account-based marketers who also run the Field Marketing programs, who also run the digital programs. And so ABM is just one of their many umbrellas or hats. And, you know, it's super challenging because it does require a level of detail and thought behind it. 

But what I would say is that... you know, you're really, you know... I do really see this like evolution of Account-based Marketing over the years that more and more organizations are going to rely on it because there's just so much in the market now. There's just so much competition, especially in the, let's say in the Workday sphere, so many different vendors offering very similar things, right? How do you set yourself apart from the rest? You need to be doing Account-based Marketing. You need to be doing that personalization, you need to be standing out from the crowd because it's just becoming harder and harder and harder. 

So I think naturally as well, things will evolve because they will be asking on you more the Sales teams, the leadership, because we need to stand out from the crowd. And an Account-based Marketing approach essentially means you are, because you're being specific to the needs of the individual to the company. And if everyone's just doing such generic programs, you're just not going to stand out from the crowd. 

So in some ways, I hope, sort of the Marketing landscape will shift and it's shifting in the sense of we need to be more personalized. And I hope then that comes back to the ABMers, in terms of reflecting their great work and process. And like I said, the best thing you can do is just be, you know, be outspoken, be clear, show what you're doing. Don't be shy because especially in like a company like Workday, you can so get lost behind and be this little team over here on the side, at the back, in the corner and you just get forgotten about. And so, you know, I think ABM is so pivotal and that's why, you know, Workday's put such a large investment in having both an Account-based Marketing and ABX team because, you know, it's obvious that this is a way we can be different and really stand out from our competitors. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Excellent. I think, well I think when this episode comes out and people see the impact that you've had at Workday and you and your team, I think there'll be more people who will be clapping from the sidelines for you and your team and more people raising a glass to the work that ABMers do. 

Very last questions here. Rapid fire. Your quickest answers, Evett. What, what has been your greatest ABM learning? Like I mentioned earlier, education is key. There is such a misunderstanding of what ABM principles are. You can never stop educating yourself and others. Great answer. Hardest part. What would you say that is? The hardest part of ABM? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Probably stakeholder alignment for ABM to be successful in an organization, you need to be part of a baseball team, as I like to call it. You need collaboration, you need participation from multiple players, otherwise ABM gets siloed and forgotten about and it's difficult to show relevancy. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Good point. Misconception, I bet you've got a few of these, but what do you think is the greatest misconception for ABM? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Like I mentioned earlier, that we are a demand generation initiative. No, we are not a quick win. We are strategic long-term play targeting the company's most important accounts for at least us as an ABX team. But just generally ABM is not going to generate the quick win for me, at least in how we do it at Workday. It is not the quick win. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Last question. We're recording this on a Tuesday, I think, but let's fast-forward to Friday. It's been a really tough week for you there in London and you're about to shut your laptop down and have a pint of Fosters or whatever…

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Not Fosters.

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Well, Fosters, I'm just trying to think of another Australian drink. A very nice glass of red wine, which you guys make some amazing wine down there in Australia. And the phone rings, your mobile rings and it's an old friend, an old colleague from my previous life who says, look, I've got to present an ABM strategy on Monday morning to my CEO. What's that one thing I must remember to say? What is that one thing that they must say in that presentation? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Ooh, that's a great question. I would say, I mean the ABM 101... the right accounts. Make sure you're targeting the right accounts, whether it's one, whether it's five, when it's a hundred, 200, you need to be targeting the right accounts if you're not targeting the right accounts. Everything else that comes after it can fall like domino effect. Crucial, crucial is selecting those right accounts. So when, whenever you're presenting an ABM strategy, make sure those accounts are the right ones.

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – And hopefully get the CEO to agree that they have the right look, the right shape, the type of accounts that they want to build the business around, right? 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – Yes, exactly. Because you're putting a huge amount of investment and intention, so you know if, if you're spending money here, right? Account-based Marketing is not cheap. So really those account selection’s... crucial. Absolutely crucial. 

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Fantastic. Well that's a great way to end this conversation with you Evett. Thank you so much for sharing your ABM journey with us today. We wish you and the whole team there at Workday every success for the future. Thank you for coming on the show. 

Evett Baranov (Workday) – No worries. Thanks for having me.