ABM: The Next Frontier

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – Well today, today I'm joined by Nora Conklin, who's the Principal Analyst for ABM at Forrester. Nora, thanks so much for joining us today.

Nora Conklin (Forresters) – Great to be here. Thanks so much.

Declan (strategicabm) – Well, today's episode's going to be a little bit different actually. Because normally on Let's talk ABM, we talk to ABM practitioners, ABM thought leaders who are running ABM campaigns within quite well-known companies across the world.

But today we're going to be looking and talking to somebody who's on the other side of the fence. From an analyst point of view. From a research point of view.

And obviously, working at Forrester – very well-known company. And I think we'll have a chance to, to talk about some things a little bit different, to get a little bit of a different perspective on ABM and to, and to lift the lid a little bit on what, what you're hearing in the market; what your customers and what the market are telling you. And so it's going to be a very different episode and, and a very interesting episode. 

So, Nora, thanks for joining. So let's kick off with a question around your work there at Forrester. So, Principal Analyst, ABM. Tell us a little bit more. What does your typical week look like?

Nora (Forresters) – Yeah, as a Principal Analyst, my role is sort of comprised of two main responsibilities.

So one being on the research side, conducting surveys or helping to shape our surveys. Talking as you mentioned already to clients, practitioners, to get a sense of where the market is now, as well as looking ahead to what's around the corner. How things are developing, what our clients need to be prepared for. So, that's one big area.

And the other is working directly with clients. So that looks a lot of different ways in things like workshops or ABM strategy sessions. Or in just recurrent conversations, where I meet with clients directly to either review their work, go through best practices.

Or, in working sessions sometimes if they're working on an engagement plan or putting together a dashboard, or things of that nature. Which also overlaps a bit with the research, since the research is not just about, you know, state of the market or looking ahead, but also how to best practice, that sort of guidance to where, you know how should you be working with different teams, or tackling certain challenges just in the day-to-day of being a demanded ABM marketer.

So, typical week is tough to say! I think from week to week, it's usually heavy on one or the other. But I think in the aggregate it's about half and half of my time is spent in each area. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Okay, that's clear, then. So, part of your role is to be a little bit of a fly on the wall, really, and to see what's happening within these companies and then to obviously either advise or to help them shape some of their BM strategy. And their – some of their thinking, right?

Nora (Forresters) – Absolutely. Absolutely. And our clients really run the gamut. You know, we have, especially with myself focusing on ABM, I'm talking to clients of all shapes and sizes. Some that are very large and complex and mature in their ABM efforts, thinking about really that leading edge: How do we evolve? Or are we optimized in the way we need to be? 

Others that are either just starting out where, you know, really a concerted ABM effort is new to them. Or they're trying to evolve, you know, if they have fits and starts, or changes in the organization with their teams or strategies. So it does run the gamut, really, of what we're looking at and who we're speaking with also and working with directly as clients.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. So that leads nicely into one of the things that we were talking about before we started this recording. We were talking about the convergence of ABM and demand generation. And I think there was a few kind of observations that you made around that subject of convergence.

Let's, if you don't mind, let's break down what we were talking about a little bit to share with the audience. I think one of the things you were saying was that many companies have demand generation teams; some companies have ABM teams. I suppose there are more companies with demand gen teams than ABM teams. And obviously many more people are thinking about generating and creating ABM teams.

What do you see, or how do you see this convergence? Are you, you know, there has been that kind of debate – "ABM is not demand gen; demand gen is not ABM" etc. But you're seeing something different. What are you seeing?

Nora (Forrester) – Yeah, at Forrester for years now, we've been tracking this trend towards convergence, meaning that really the best of demand and best of ABM are sort of coming together. I was speaking about this actually at our most recent B2B summit a few months ago. Where, you know, there's a few different ways – we talk about it, myself and my colleagues – but it's really that ABM won. You know? It's proven itself to be the more successful approach.

Of course, the question has always been about focus and about scale, you know – where are the right places to invest, you know, more resource, more effort, more attention, more personalization, etc. But also, how can we do this to the greatest extent possible?

And there's, I think, traditionally been a bit of a hard wall, if you will, there. That there were kind of confines on, on how personal you could get, how much you could scale, how much focus was really feasible with different organizations. And in recent years, just with the scale of technology – the level of data and insights that are being brought to market.

And what we see also becoming really entrenched, you know, they're not leading-edge, they're really established in all manner of different B2B organizations. That those are really changing the conversation about how much scale can be achieved, but also the focus question is just as important, you know – what, really, do – should we personalize getting into the minds of the accounts and the buyers within the accounts, refining our focus around opportunities within the accounts?

All of that is still, I think, an area that really deserves a lot of attention and, and focus from organizations. And it's interesting, because prior to joining Forrester as an analyst, I was a client of Forrester, but I always was responsible for both demand and ABM – even though I worked in a few different organizations with different target audiences.

You know, some were much more focused, where there really were just a few accounts that the bulk of our revenue came from. And we were really focused not only on new business, but on retention, post-sale, etc. And others that were a little wider scale and a bit more of what you would call, I guess, a demand motion, you know, where there were deal sizes that looked relatively similar and a wider array of clients that we would serve.

But ultimately the same principles apply. It's really – and that's something I try to emphasize with clients as well – I see a lot of folks that are focused on, especially as I talk about starting out or evolving, you know, is this a One-to-one or a One-to-few, or a One-to- many effort, where really the question is not the number – as you know: What's "a few"? And what's "many"? Obviously, that's relative depending on the different organizations and who you're serving.

Really the question is: How proactive and how personal are we going to get to speaking to this particular account and these particular buyers? So there's that – that answer is different for every organization who, who you're working with, how unique and different your micro segments are.

That's really where the work comes in to tailor ABM efforts to the best, to the best effect for organizations. And that's what really guides, especially as you talk about: Do we have a separate team? Do we have a demand team? Do we have an ABM team? Do we have different, you know, roles focused in different areas? There isn't one ideal state!

Just, there's not one perfect form of ABM that everyone should be doing! And there's not one ideal org structure, even though I know that's, it would be great to have that, right?! A lot of people just want to say: "Okay, tell me how to do it and I'll fill it, you know, I'll follow the steps or fill in the blanks."

But it really depends how you're structured. You know, for example, I've spoken with some practitioners that go to market completely differently in certain regions or countries. You know, their buyers are totally different, their brand perception's totally different. The portfolio is different in terms of what they sell. So in that sort of a mode, it makes sense to carve out that focus.

So, it's very personal and that's something I always try to emphasize as, as a focus for clients that are thinking about how to invest in ABM. You know, not just starting out, but also: What's the right ideal state for your organization? And where ultimately you want to be with your customers and those that you work with?

Declan (strategicabm) – Fascinating. There's one thing you said at the very beginning of that piece: you said "ABM has won".

Nora (Forresters) – Yeah.

Declan (strategicabm) – Which almost, like you say, you're saying, kind of, ABM has won the argument. Is that almost what you're saying?

Nora (Forresters) – Yeah – argument, I don't know, arm wrestling! There was, like I said, there's a number of different ways that we've talked about: One of my colleagues, the way he would put it is that "ABM ate demand!"

It sort of took over, I talk about it sometimes as, the way it always registers in my mind, is that it's kind of polluted the water. It's everywhere now, you know, and so it's just, it's, taken on – I think – much, much more of the capabilities that traditionally fell within demand, you know? 

Thinking about self-guided touchpoints, thinking about digital elements, content targeting, all of that really has now been impacted by ABM – whether or not folks are actively investing in ABM or not. Through the technologies and all the best practices, I think they're, they've... "ABM – the approach of ABM has infiltrated demand at large", is sort of the way that I would describe it.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure, we might reach this kind of question a bit later, but you could also argue that as – using the word "polluted" – as ABM has kind of, you know, polluted the waters in, there are so many companies who are doing ABM, but actually it's not really ABM and it's kind of like a muddied – to continue the the theme around murkiness – it's kind of murky waters: Is it demand? Is it industry marketing? Is it target account marketing? Is it industry marketing? It's a bit of a mine, it's a bit of a muddle out there at the moment.

But just one very, very briefly, you mentioned before, Nora, that you were looking after demand gen and ABM in previous companies before you joined Forrester. And so you, you know, you, had your hands dirtied, so to speak, doing both.

If you had to kind of objectively look at each as a kind of a unique case, what would you say, you know, if somebody said to you, "Hey, what do I do?" What would you say the pros and cons, very, very briefly, what would you say the pros and cons of DG – demand gen – versus ABM?

Nora (Forresters) – Yeah, I think it's, again, going back to what, what really makes sense from the business strategy. You know, when you look at your growth plan, your revenue targets – does that come from just a few, you know, are there some that really stand out, have an outsized impact on achieving that goal? Or where you're going to be in three years versus a wider set of audiences? 

I really think the "Why" is kind of behind what organizations should invest in. But in terms of pros and cons of how to go about each, I think that the real kind of crux of where ABM is, you know, has won – is more successful – is in thinking, you know, I have a former colleague who always used to say, "If I could rename ABM I would call it insights-driven marketing". 

You know, really looking at the account, the buyers within the account, the nature of the opportunities within the account as the north star for what you invest in from a Marketing perspective, from a Sales perspective. You know, you're thinking about the entire revenue engine oriented around: "What do these accounts need?" "What do these buyers within these accounts need?"

Where I think the demand approach is, typically – or traditionally, right? – "Who's buying now?" That you're juggling and you're trying really to, to capture active demand. And that is a balancing act. I think when you, when we talk about convergence or you know, ABM taking everything over, it's kind of butting up against that question, you know, yes, there are some that are actively shopping or in market now, but are we better served to put investments over the longer term into those who are a strong fit, but might not be actively shopping now?

And conversely, just because there are, you know, really what we could foresee as very strong customers that would retain, you know, with expansion potential, you know, we have reason to believe they'd be advocates for us. You know, looking at all of those, kind of post-sale, and the importance of lifetime value of customers and prospects that you're focused on.

The flip side of the coin, of course, is: Well, what if those are all long-term, right? That we could be talking, you know, a year-plus out for a deal to actually hit, or for them to be ready to speak to a seller and proceed, you know, with a contract or whatever it might be. So the flip side of the coin is: Well, what about people who are shopping now that may not be the cream of the crop, but they're acceptable, right? They're somewhat of a good fit!

So that's really where, at our most, you know, advanced clients are really thinking on those terms, kind of dialing up, you know, their measures of fit strength, you know, for a particular offering or across their portfolios. Versus, you know, what are the indicators that we see that they're, they're conducting research in this area, you know, they're checking things out or they're actually in market looking for a solution or, you know, they working with a competitor now, but that contract's coming up – you know, whatever the kind of indicators of a purchase cycle might be.

And evaluating their investments accordingly. Right? How much do we put on those? That might be a little farther down, but are, you know, we see that, that they're buying now and we want to play in that space. Versus how much do we invest in those that are, that may show less intent at this moment, but could pay off in years to come.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, I think some good points there. One thing you were saying about demand generation or capturing demand, I always find it interesting that, kind of, you know, the term "demand generation" is a little bit of an oxymoron. So, you know, and there's a whole debate going on, which, you know, you may have seen on LinkedIn: people talking about, well, you can't create, you know, you can't generate demand. It's either there or it's not there.

And, and it's an interesting debate, and I think you were talking there about, you know, capturing that demand that exists out there, and so, but it may be "demand capture" is perhaps a better term than "demand generation", right?

Nora (Forresters) – Right. And the way we would, the way I like to talk about it is demand capture versus seeding demand, which is, you know, generating demand. You know, it's more about positioning or telling the story.

You know, for those who are familiar with Forresters buying journey research, you know, it starts with challenging the status quo, right? There's a problem or there's an opportunity or there's a different way to do things.

So there's certainly room to play in telling that story, particularly from that Account-based approach, where it's not necessarily based on where they are in a deal cycle; it's based on who they are, their needs, the potential ahead of them, you know? So it's kind of investments and, you know, all the efforts to personalize and everyone's sort of dialed in more, more on that scale.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. Yeah. One thing, Nora, I saw about that, which I thought was fascinating, was when somebody was talking about why you cannot generate demand, they talked about the fact that what you actually need to happen is something internal needs to happen within the company, or within the person, or the, or the group – the buying group – whether it's an internal change in the company, a new CEO, there's a regulatory change, there's an environmental change or macro change, or a competitor change.

Something changes inside the company, and that change is the catalyst to make you, your team go and look for a way to solve that problem that is being, that problem or that opportunity that is being presented by that change. 

So, you know, whether it was... I'm sure a lot of people made a lot of money back in 2000 with the whole kind of, you know, IT change? And so that was obviously, you know, there wasn't a whole bunch of people generating demand, but you must change your computer system 'cause no, no, there was a problem that they recognized internally, and off people went and tried to find a solution.

So let's talk about one, another thing you said to me, which I thought was fascinating, because generally when we talk about ABM, we kind of say that ABM isn't ABM without Sales.

Nora (Forresters) – Mmm.

Declan (strategicabm) – And, you know, we talk about Sales alignment – Marketing-Sales alignment – You, we all know that is, a must – a must-have – and without that you haven't got ABM, we know that! We know that you can't, it just can't work. It's a team sport and, and we know that it will fail without that team element.

But one thing you were saying was actually some, from some of your conversations that you're having with customers, it's kind of moving on a little bit more – ABM's moving on a little bit more from that. You were saying to me – I think you were saying to me – it's more about: How do you help buyers buy.

Nora (Forresters) – Right.

Declan (strategicabm) – Um, tell us more about that thinking, rather than kind of, you know, the Sales element, but "No, we're actually here to help buyers buy".

Nora (Forresters) – Absolutely! Absolutely, and I think, traditionally, ABM was sort of sold, if you will, as a way to help Sales sell, you know, they were, Marketing is here to work alongside you around your goals from a Sales and pipeline perspective and focused in the same way you are on the same accounts and everything like that.

But really it involves change from both the Marketing and Sales side, and a reorientation of not, you know, it's not Marketing hitching to Sales, say, "We're here to help Sales sell". It's both Marketing and Sales getting on board that what we're really trying to do is help buyers buy, you know?

And so, just as you talk about the, something needs to change internally, you know, there's some sort of trigger or, you know, change in perspective within an account. That's all part of the buyer's purchasing process. Which is ultimately the deciding factor in whether or not they make a purchase, right? Or make a decision. 

So, both Marketing and Sales, I think, really need to change their perspective. Especially as we were talking about with, really, I think what's changed the game is the capability set. You know, we're able now to get much more on the inside. 

Of course, Sales and personal representative, you know, your brand representatives, your networks, your customers are all, you know that those personal contexts are still very robust and direct, you know. First-party sources of information about the state of affairs or what's going on, how people are thinking and what they're facing. 

But we have so much at our disposal now that really our job as marketers and sellers is to help buyers buy, understand where they are, and gather and put these signals to work. So I think that's, and another way I think this connects back to the "ABM won" a little bit also, because I think the other thing traditionally with demand gen, it's capturing demand. You know, it's one action, you know, "We got, we got the hand raise!" Or whatever it is. 

But we know that the decision is not linear. There are stops, stalls, shifts, of course. You know, if you have long sales cycles, you could be looking very far out. So, really responding – and it's not that Marketing and Sales have the same job. They have different roles and responsibilities – but they have the same goal! We're trying to do the same, you know, ultimately we're after the same objective.

So, how do we work together with the insights that are captured from Sales or revenue development efforts, and from Marketing efforts to shape the picture of who might be interested, what's changing, what, what initiatives are they after? How does that picture – you know, so it's kind of an iterative picture that's being shaped, and of course it's subject to change, even at the point where they're in, you know, getting a demo or a POC or whatnot in conversation with Sales, of course priorities could shift, changes in the team happen.

So how can we work collectively to try to preempt or foresee some risks or change, you know, to play defense on those deals that are progressed. Just as we're trying to get in at the right time and position appropriately to wherever they are in the journey. 

So it's, I think it's a big mindset shift, you know, traditionally I think there were kind of a division of responsibilities, you know, that well, we're responsible, Marketing's going to take the lead with this part over here, and then Sales would get involved. And while that's still true to some extent, you know, that there's someone going to be in a leading role at different points. 

Everyone has a vested interest, right? In the ultimate objective and has a part to play, has insights to share onto how to, to guide the efforts of the team and complement the buyer best for where they are and for their preferences if they want to engage by a self-guided means, you know, we're seeing that come up more and more with self-serve preferences. 

Certainly also as younger generations are becoming a bigger part of B2B purchase decisions, incorporating all of that, right? And responding to buyer preferences, which is again, something that ABM ushered forth, right? That it's, what's, how are they thinking about it? How would they speak about it? Where do they interact? You know, that's the first question, right? That's, that's the argument.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. And that's a couple of things you said there, which may, which kind of linked to what we were talking about before, before we started the recording. I think a couple of things you said to me was that marketers need to change and that everyone must become an ABMer. 

So with those two lines there: Marketers need to change and everyone must become an ABMer. Is there any example you can share – anonymized – of where, you see kind of really working that everyone is becoming an ABMer in an organization? Is it a use case you've seen?

Nora (Forresters) – Yeah, I think the biggest changes in terms of, you know, everyone becoming an ABMer – that was partly something we noticed with data that we gathered around ABM capabilities really in those working in ABM and the skills that were most important to them, or most important for them to have, you know, things like strategic thinking, creative problem solving, communication, collaboration, project management, those are very much reflected in the skillset that are going to be important for everyone working in, in B2B going forward. 

So it's to do with the competencies that have always been important to ABM becoming important for everyone. And also that audience-centric focus, again, I think there's, the silos have kind of been put up internally to say, well, I manage, you know, just this channel or just this moment, right? And which again, we need to take a more blended approach where there might be someone in the lead, but that it's a collective effort and, and the team sport really across the board, that there's not sole ownership at any stage.

So, taking that kind of audience-first, buyer-first approach, I think is something that the best ABMers have always done, right? And they were, you know, sort of the advocate for the buyer across channels and across moments. So I think that sort of mission statement, if you will, or vantage point, is also something that needs to be instilled more, in any, all shapes and sizes of demand and ABM teams.

With Marketing needing to change, we're working with a lot of clients on, kind of making those changes, but also the, one of the biggest, as those working at ABM know, one of the biggest challenges is alignment and getting on the same page.

You know, something I often talk to clients about is not, you know, especially as they're starting or looking to, you know, jump-start a new effort, or what-have-you, not putting it forth as an, a Marketing thing, right? That Marketing's taking care of ABM, but really to have an open conversation around, you know, looking at the business objective. What do we need to do collectively as a team responsible for revenue? You know, what are the skills and competencies we have on our team? What, you know, what audience should we be focused on?

You know, all of that isn't decided off in a corner and then circulated to say, "Oh! Okay, we're doing ABM! Here's what it looks like. Here's what we need!" But bringing everyone into that conversation: really critical for any transformation, right? To have it instilled and to have everyone have a piece of it.

So I think the same thing is true from, you know, Marketing needing to change is it's not just about leads, or about the sets of channels that we've always run. We're going to be guided by the audience. Maybe that involves different channels or touchpoints that we haven't traditionally invested in, based on where, where we see them going for information. Or their preferences. 

So having that kind of mindset shift is, I think a big place, you know, really from kind of a change management or almost like coalition-building perspective internally, that's where we see a lot of clients' focus now. As well as restructuring their, their Marketing programs to be more adaptive off of signals and insights. And sometimes yet, with the goal of collecting more signals! 

And it's, you know, that it's not just about one, one direct action, but when we look broadly, we're trying to, to build engagement, to see, you know, certain trends, to gain more information, especially if you're going after very large buying groups. Do, have we revealed a new place where there might be someone who's going to have a stake in the game or would be impacted and will need to be involved in making the decision. So, changing the goals and the approach of Marketing in the, in the day-to-day also.

Declan (strategicabm) – Well, that was a long answer to a short question! But there were so, so many things packed into there! 

But a couple of things I was just going to pull out, which I just made some notes here. One, obviously, that you mentioned about customer-first approach, that's what, you know, you see from the best ABMers is, you know, the amount of time they spend with customers is extraordinary. And that's not something that typically marketers generally do – spend time with customers. That's number one, I think. 

I think number two, obviously the fact that I think from my conversations on this podcast and with the general market, most ABM managers and directors, they find it very hard to hire other ABMers. It's a, it's not an, there's not a defined skill set out there, really. And it's a very tough, you know, I see all these posts on LinkedIn: "Hey! Looking for an ABM person!" But it's not easy. It's not easy. 

And I, one of my most recent guests, Sloan Newman from NTT DATA, he said that very often his best ABMers tend to come from agencies because they've, they're the ones who are more commercially minded. They're the ones who tend to be out talking to customers. They're the ones who tend to have a revenue number against them. They're the ones who tend to be much more kind of like adaptive and flexible because they're jumping from one customer to another customer, and they're having to, they're not just focused on, you know, one channel, as you said. 

So there's a lot of points to kind of break down in that, in what you said. And so the audience will have to probably press 'play' twice on that answer to get, to get everything out. 

Let's talk about maturity, and one thing we talk about in our, at our agency is about ABM maturity and how mature each company is with regards to ABM. And, you know, very large companies can be immature when it comes to ABM and indeed very small, you know, more agile companies can be much more mature when it comes to ABM. 

So it's not dictated by the size of the company or the age of the company, but just how experienced they are in ABM. But one of the things I think you were saying to me before was that you were saying that, from your research, you see that a lot of companies still see ABM as being a digital play. 

And that's probably one of the reasons why ABM can get a bad name. Because of the digital element of it. The fact that if you rely on digital channels only, you're only going to have so much of an impact, etc. But what, why is that? What's happening that people see it, or a lot of people, as you said, see it as a digital play? 

Nora (Forresters) – Yeah, I think it's very simple. We still see this, you know, I still see clients and practitioners that, you know, say they're doing ABM and what they mean is they're running programmatic ads to a target account list. And I think it's pretty simple, it's just that it's easy to do, right? If you buy a tool and you start using it, "We're doing ABM!" you know? It's almost like a plug-and-play. 

So everything that we were just speaking about, and even to your point about the roles and responsibility, you know, where ABM can, where ABMers can come from? I guess I've seen that as well, you know, in my practitioner experience and with clients that, you know, I've seen those with a Sales background come in and be really strong performers, or from an ops background. 

And that's why it's really much more about the competency, you know, who has that kind of level of thinking and skillset regardless of, you know, where in the org that they would sit or necessarily kind of what, what functional area they come from. But all of those things are hard to think about and take time, right? To really evaluate the competencies of your team or what's needed, right? If there's further training or hiring that needs to be done just at, you know, bringing everyone in. 

And I face this as a practitioner, too. I remember kind of, you know, meeting with different Sales teams and hearing a bunch of different things. So you have to kind of come out and say, "Well, here's what I'm hearing. You know, if we look at the data, there is a difference really between, you know, we see a quantitative difference in revenue potential from these audiences. 

So, perhaps we should – or, the feasibility, you know we see a large revenue potential, but we're really not equipped to capture it at the, you know, to capitalize or really be able to help them realize value. And so being able to navigate those conversations obviously relates to the skills and competencies, but also takes time, and takes difficult conversations, or confusing conversations at times. 

So, I think, you know, why people are, some are still investing in digital and calling it a day is because those things are hard. However, I will say I don't, I wouldn't say that it's being seen that way, you know, I'm talking to a lot of clients who are like, "Well, this is what we're doing, but we know that's not really how it should be" or "We know that there's more that we can do". 

So I would qualify I guess that kind of statement by saying, you know, while it's still happening, I think practitioners realize that they're leaving opportunity on the table or they're not really capitalizing on everything that they could with that approach. I don't see it being kind of normalized that, well, this is just that, that's just what ABM is. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Isn't that the definition of madness? Doing something that you know not, is not going to work, and then continuing to do it?

Nora (Forresters) – Right! Expecting different results. Right. Exactly!

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I know, I mean, it's frustrating because we, you know, when we talk to potential customers and we ask them about their ABM efforts, and very often, I mean, I think you've heard the same, that they might say, well, we do targeted LinkedIn, or we do LinkedIn lists, or we do coffee vouchers or direct mail, and they're all marvelous. But they're just tactics, potential tactics, whereas it's actually not an ABM program or strategy. 

One thing you said earlier, Nora, which kind of just grabbed my attention, you said that the world's changing, people are changing, there are new channels, and I think one, two things you said to me: 

One, obviously, was self-service, which I think obviously we're used to that in the B2C world, but it's really interesting to hear that in the B2B world.

Nora (Forresters) – Yeah.

Self-service. And I think a couple of things – you also mentioned e-commerce, and then you also mentioned new generations with different ways of buying, and I'm pretty sure you said to me previously to this recording that something like 30% of the buyers were under 30, or I read that somewhere. 

But how are these events, you know, self-service, e-commerce, these new generations who are a different way of thinking – how are they, how would, how will they impact ABM, do you think? 

Nora (Forresters) – Absolutely. I think the biggest, the biggest change that we see with generational shifts are as, as you already called out, that move to self-service. So being self-directed in research, which doesn't necessarily mean uniquely digital, you know, that you're only, you know, going to websites or consulting digital resources, but that you're being self-guided in your conversations. 

Also talking to peers, or to others in, you know, parts of communities, and things like that. And being able to learn kind of on your own terms. I think that's something that will impact more and more ABM motions. I think, again, thinking traditional ABM, right? If you're just focused on, you know, you're working with a major accounts manager and you're focused on a handful of accounts, Sales really was almost like a gateway at that point. You know, they were really the only way, you know, that a buyer would have to go through, you know, in order to proceed with a contract. 

And of course that still exists, you know, as you talk about very complex deals and, and contracts, you know, those are still predominantly, you know, Sales has a strong role to play, but even in those sorts of spaces, I think we predict that there's going to be more self-serve elements, you know, in terms of learning about, you know, how pricing and packaging is put together, or being able to customize certain elements of what you're, what you would include in a contract as an example, having that be a little more self-guided. 

And of course, there are some very large clients who are very used to e-commerce – you know, manufacturing is a classic example, where it's, really, almost like an add-to-cart kind of motion, you know, but with a very large revenue impact and scale. So, I think that has always been the case a little bit. 

I mean, another example that stands out is when you're selling through partners, you know, that's usually a big piece of the puzzle also for a strategic account kind of focus. So, all of that is going to continue. 

But I think it's, again, a question of capability – almost like we were talking about before, with the insights and signals now being so much more readily available, and so much more personalized than they were traditionally, you know, and that kind of field advancing, I think now the same thing that the self-serve, the ways of interacting directly are broadening so much that it's now changing, you know, so it's sort of the, the changing capabilities that's changing what's, what's possible and expected of us, as marketers and sellers working with, with business buyers. 

Declan (strategicabm) – And the point around the younger generations who kind of under-thirties that are making a sizable percentage of the buying group, or the filter group? What, what's your data showing there?

Nora (Forresters) – Yeah, what's something that actually stood out from, it's not our most recent data, but a couple of years ago, we found actually that younger generations, which means when we talk about younger generations, we're looking at millennial buyers, which I think the oldest millennials are like mid-40s now, but they're largely identifying themselves as early deciders, which means when the time comes for them to make a purchase, they already know what they're going to buy. 

So, that sort of ties into, you know, our earlier conversations about seeding versus capturing demand, right? That it's not just about leading someone on a pat, you know, which would, I guess, being supportive, that "you can't generate demand necessarily" kind of point. 

But if there are buyers now that we're seeing are always learning, always interacting, that there's more of a role to play in that part, especially with the self-guided and digital touchpoints. So we're seeing those preferences shift, and they're happening admittedly different ways in different industries, but that's where we see that kind of headed. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Well, thanks Nora, for that point around the millennials. I was just thinking that unfortunately I can't include myself in that group anymore! So clearly my, the way that I think and buy is clearly different to that. But I would say that I do make my mind up very quickly and then with my own research, and then I do then contact the companies afterwards, rather than let Sales get involved. And I try to avoid Sales like the plague, and I just, I try to make my own mind up, basically. 

Let's talk about making your own mind up actually with intent. One thing you said to me, because obviously you mentioned several times actually through this interview about intent, but one thing that you said to me about intent, which I thought was really interesting: you said that things are moving on a little bit with regards to intent. 

And very often it's not a question just of intent, but it's a question also of fit – and good fit. And these signals are really important. So it's not just, you know, and it goes beyond whether it's ICP or not ICP. Can you briefly share what you mean by "It goes beyond ICP"? 

Nora (Forresters) –  Yeah, I think a key piece to recognize is that, you know, with whatever an ideal customer profile or a set of strategic accounts, you know, there's really a gradient or a scale, you know, if you think about ideal or acceptable, right? 

Those are fuzzy lines between the, you know, it's... And like we were saying before, too, and where I see some of the most advanced clients and practitioners kind of operating, is setting up a framework that kind of allows them to ratchet up or down, depending, you know, so to adapt to kind of a fluid environment where, you know, you're going to either invest more or take a different approach with a higher fit versus higher engagement, and sort of moving. 

Because again, it's not a fixed universe really for, especially as we talk about complex organizations with a wide array of offerings, which some might be more complex, strategic, large deal size; some might be more, you know, smaller deal size, e-comm kind of motion. 

So the, "It goes beyond ICP" really, meaning that it's not just a black or white, a yes or no – are they in our ICP or not? But getting a sense of, well, what makes our, our best customer? And really, again, looking at the post-sale, who, who is likely to retain and, you know, become advocates or really, you know, realize value from the solution, from how we're working with them and can really kind of graduate to the level of strategic partner, you know, kind of beyond the customer relationship. 

So getting that understanding, but then kind of understanding the variables that impact that – you know, if we see, making up examples here, you know, if we see they're working with a certain implementation partner that, you know, tends to have a quick remain time to value, or something like that. That's not a yes or no, right? It's not a go-or-no-go kind of factor, but that impacts their ability to get started quickly in the process. 

So getting that kind of map, if you will, of fit and making the decisions on where to draw the lines, you know, where do we cut off and say, "No, we're not going to invest in these audiences, no matter what we see in terms of them, you know, shopping". Or, you know, being in market for a solution that's, yeah, a moving target, really, based on the revenue goal, based on the resources, you know, the budget and team, and everything that's available to you. So, setting up that kind of dynamic environment is really the next, the next frontier. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, I love that expression. "The next frontier". It's like a Star Trek…

Nora (Forresters) –  Right! ... 

Declan (strategicabm) – expression: ABM, the next frontier! Yeah.

So, a couple of questions for you about ROI and metrics. Number one, just links really nicely to what you just said there. You, you're talking about post-sale, and one of the things you were saying to me before was that lifetime value – LTV – is now quickly going to become the ABM metric, or one of the most important ABM metrics, as opposed to deal size, deal velocity, average order value, etc. etc. Is that what you're seeing from talking to the market, from talking to customers? That LTV's, that post-sale, is becoming more and more important with ABM? 

Nora (Forresters) –  Yeah, I think that's definitely where we see it headed. I think, you know, in terms of being deeply entrenched in current measurement, it's, I think there's only a few that are really getting there, but I'm seeing this a lot with clients and practitioner, even those that are relatively new to ABM or starting to establish an effort, asking about data and measurement, particularly through the lens of, "Well, how do we know that ABM is successful? Like, how do we know that these accounts or opportunities wouldn't have closed by themselves?" You know? 
So there's definitely still a kind of need to show Marketing's value, right? What has marketing contributed to, to this equation? But I'm definitely seeing, I think once upon a time it was, "Well, of course! ABM is the best thing to do!" And there weren't necessarily, but now I'm seeing again, even though starting out kind of coming out with that question: "Well, how do we know that this is creating something additive?" 

So what we recommend at Forrester for all manner of B2B measurement is really looking at lift, you know: What's the investment and the level of engagement that corresponds to a positive result? So we know not just that we're getting engagement, but we supported this level of engagement, which contributed to an increase in whatever, you know, if you're looking at closed-won revenue, or looking at retention, or whatever. 

I do think, and actually the vision report that I spoke about at a B2B summit, looking at the future of ABM, kind of made mention of this point where really the goal of – the value of the strategic focus of ABM – is not just about optimizing. As we were talking about the, you know, demand's and ABM's sort of strengths, you know, traditional strengths. 

It's not just optimizing to active buying cycles or, you know, deals that are likely to close. It's looking at a longer scale. And so, when you look at lifetime value of customer, then you're really optimizing towards, again, not just pipeline right now, which is of course, how Sales tends to be thinking, right? If they're managing towards goals on a quarterly or an annual basis, but looking longer scale to say, "How do we fill up the tank and invest in our customers that are going to be around two or three years from now, or have a high likelihood of retention?" 

But also, you know, value realization and, of course, I mentioned this earlier, too, that gets also to an idea that we've, we've pushed at Forrester as well in terms of buyers as partners. You know, it's your customer kind of in a co-creation of value with you as an organization. So it's really orienting not just from a Marketing-Sales kind of revenue-pipeline perspective, but really from a sustainable, profitable growth business perspective. I think that's the real value of ABM's, or the strategy, the strategic kind of vision of ABM infiltrating all of Marketing and Sales investments and approaches. 

Declan (strategicabm) – And one – and talking about metrics – one thing you said to me as well with regards to attribution is, and I think I'm going to quote you correctly, you said "No-one is happy about attribution". So from your many, many conversations with people with the market, with you know, companies doing ABM, what's the issue here and where do you stand on attribution and ABM?

Nora (Foresters) – Yeah, and I'm seeing, I'm sure you have too, I've seen more and more folks come out and say like, "Well, it's just bad. We shouldn't even be doing attribution". 

Where I think there is a role for attribution to play on the activity side, you know, particularly if you're managing an ABM program working across different channels and touchpoints, and you're saying, okay, for these audiences at these moments, are they more likely to engage in this or that sort of channel? Or what's the relative performance?

You know, there is a place for attribution to play in that sphere, but it's certainly not what Marketing's value or impact rests upon. So, it's exciting, I think to see that being reflected in the market so much. I think folks are really recognizing that, you know, it's at like, just looking at a channel attribution or a last click or something like that is not telling the full story, especially if you're looking at a complex, you know, buying group and a long purchase cycle. 

So definitely seeing recognition of that, of that in the market. And I think we're starting to see changes there, just as I was talking about sort of the lifetime value being the ultimate goal. I think that it will take time to sort of orient businesses around that. 

And of course there's always changes happening within businesses that, you know, acquisitions and things of that nature that would change, you know, the overall revenue goal or the makeup of the customers that you're, that you're trying to partner with and that you're after. 

So I think it will be a long process for organizations to embed that. And I think there's a lot of recognition also from the vendors and technology providers that, you know, we need to level up on the measurement side. So it's a space I think where there's a lot of potential for change in the future. And it's good to see that, I think people are interested in it, you know, not necessarily just holding on to traditional measures.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, I mean, one of the things I kind of hear from talking to guests is that very, it's the anecdotal evidence which is more powerful than the numerical evidence. 

And that the stories that they hear and share with their Sales leadership, or indeed with the C-suite about, you know, what happened and what the client or potential clients or future clients said, those anecdotes are very often, those stories are much more powerful because, you know, a CEO, you know, these are not stupid people, these are very bright people and they can understand the relationship between the events and the investments, and the Account-based approach. 

And indeed then what a customer will say when they're having a lunch or a dinner, or you meet them at an event or whatever, and they can talk about that. So I'm hearing a lot more that people are leading definitely at the very beginning with those kind of anecdotal stories, and then maybe then they can have the more evidential, numerical stuff to back it up down the road, actually said the LTV is clearly something that every customer would want to show.

And I can't remember, I was talking to one of my guests and they were telling me that one of their oldest customers is a hundred years that they've been with them. So, you can imagine the LTV on a customer that's been with you for a hundred years. So, er, we would all like to have customers that long!

Two or three questions to wrap up with. One thing that's a passion of ours at the agency we talk an awful lot about is personalization. But one thing that I liked when we were speaking previously to recording this was you were talking about the importance of meaningful personalization.

What do you, 'cause you know, everybody can use some technology and say, "Hi Nora, how's it going at Forrester?" You know, anybody can do that. My five-year-old downstairs can probably do that! But what do you mean? What do you think meaningful personalization looks like? What are your customers telling you?

Nora (Forrester) – Yeah, it's interesting that example that you give, because I was struck actually hearing from a peer group of ABM practitioners that that was, for a lot of folks, that's what personalization means – is just saying: "Hi Nora! How are things at Forrester?" 

Like that kind of simple, direct like plug-in, plug-and-play – where really, if you think about customizing a message in terms of, you know what I mean, it really runs the gamut, you know, from industry – or imagery, rather – to language that they're, you know, if they're internal projects or initiatives that you're reflecting, you know, the formats that they prefer to consume, you know, if you're customizing the delivery and the timing based on signals that you see – all of that really falls under personalization.

Where the question of meaningful personalization comes in, I think, is that there can be, first of all, like diminishing returns on, you know, if there are certain things that you're kind of spending a lot of time and effort to personalizing that don't really move the needle. So, which is why there always needs to be a testing practice in every, you know, program and channel and touchpoint, to complement ABM. 

And it's something I often emphasize with clients, too, that it's not that you have the engagement plan fully baked out at the start: Here's what we're going to run, you know, for the next three months or, or whatever it is! But that you have hypotheses that you're testing and constantly reacting to, to changes in what you see. 

So, part of that could be that there's – I've also seen it work, you know, as I talked about my practitioner experience in demand and ABM – I've seen it also be kind of mutually beneficial where there could be, you know, if you're, if you're being hyper-focused on a handful of accounts or, or a segment of accounts, and then seeing strong performers that, okay, well could we test this to a wider segment? Does this have resonance across, you know, to a broader industry? 

You know, that again, there's kind of an ebb and flow between scale and personalization that it's always changing. First of all, you know, as we talked about the advent or the growing presence of self-serve, you know, channels and delivery are always subject to change, and messages also, you know, if people get exposed to a lot of things, they get tired of it, right? 

So it's constantly, it's a moving target in a moving picture, but finding, you know, the balance between personalization and scale is, I think, what reveals what's really meaningful to our audiences. Yeah. What moves the needle in terms of how they interact.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, I think it's a very fair point. I think we're definitely seeing people wanting to do some really meaningful personalization. And the reaction that we're getting from the market is that people want to move away from the kind of, like, generic personalization and move much more towards understanding the company, the people and the challenges, the agenda, what's keeping them awake at night and trying to bring that personalization into the messaging and then, and indeed, into the solution. 

The, obviously, Forrester is, is very well known for many of the surveys that you produce and release every year. "The State of ABM 2024", I think, is one that you've been working on most recently. When is that due out? Hopefully it hasn't come out yet. When, er, is it?

Nora (Forrester) – No, yes! It'll, um, yeah! No, happy to put a little plug! So yeah, we conduct a survey biannually, so every two years. Our last was done in 2022. We just got results back a week or two ago. So we're working on collating the results. It'll be a mix of compare-and-contrast, you know – how have things evolved over the past couple years, but also a snapshot of the challenges and approaches and opportunities that are standing out now in terms of performance, as well. 

You know, we ask questions about the portfolio mix of organizations, of whether or not they hit their growth target, you know, are there trends that stood out from those who did? Those are all sort of learnings that we're looking to kind of pull forward as well from the survey results. So, it will definitely be released by the end of the year. I, I'm assuming my best guess right now is probably November timeframe, but, but yes, definitely keep, keep an eye out for, for the findings there. 

Declan (strategicabm) – Okay. Well, I'm sure you'll be doing big publicity on it, and I'm sure we'll, we'll join in and share that as well. Normally at the end, at this point now, I ask some rapid-fire questions. 

Now, you can choose which hat you want to wear, whether you want to wear your Forrester hat, your analyst hat, or whether you want to wear your, your practitioner hat when you were doing ABM, but just some very rapid-fire questions for you, Nora, just to finish off: Number one, what, what's been your greatest ABM learning? 

Nora (Forrester) – I think what strikes me from the practitioner perspective, although I also see this as an analyst, is the relentlessness. I think the amount of time that it takes and that you've never reached the summit, you know? It's a never-ending play to adapt, react, preempt. I think that was something that really struck me when I was starting to really sink my teeth into ABM as a practitioner. And that I still see in practice with clients.

Declan (strategicabm) –  “Relentless” is a very good way of describing it. What would you believe to be the hardest part from your experience of ABM? 

Nora (Forrester) – I think the, what we were speaking about before, in terms of the kind of coalition building, and understanding and level setting, building understanding and communication and buy-in with different teams – that is also relentless! You've never, it's not just that we had that conversation. We're moving on now. I think that's what I would say in response to the hardest part.

Declan (strategicabm) –  Yeah. I think you turn your back and you think it's all done and you find out that people are talking about ABM in a very different way to what you said, and you've got to go back and do it again. What would you say – linked to that, potentially – is, what do you think is the greatest misconception about ABM?

Nora (Forrester) – Ooh. I think... I think it's still... I still see a bit, and we talked before about the kind of digital nature. I think I still see that it's a Marketing initiative, and a Marketing play, and, oh! You know, that it's owned by Marketing. Really, that it's a business and it's a business strategy. It's a strategic objective, and it involves the entire revenue engine, from Sales and Marketing to customer success, to revenue development. I think that's the biggest misconception.

Declan (strategicabm) –  Yeah. Now we're recording this Nora, on a Thursday evening, my time; morning your time, or late morning your time. But imagine it's Friday, which is tomorrow, and you get, you've had a hard week, and you, you're about to shut your laptop down and have a glass of something or a coke or whatever your favorite tipple is, and one of your old friends calls you and says, "Nora, you've got to help me. I've got to, I've been asked to present an ABM strategy to my CEO on Monday morning. Tell me, what must I include?" And you say, "Look, I'll tell you one thing 'cause I'm just about to kick back and relax for the weekend." What's that one thing you would tell them to include in that presentation?

Nora (Forrester) – Ooh. I think, and I spend a lot of time with clients on this as well. We spoke about a lot in the beginning, but the business objective, you know: What is ABM going to do for us? And usually there are many possible answers, but I still see clients say, "Well, we need to do ABM 'cause it's the thing to do." And it's like, okay, well, why!? Like, which accounts? Which customer? What's the business result going to be? Especially for an executive-level audience, hooking into the executive view of growth for the organization, and rooting the approach in that is critical.

Declan (strategicabm) – I think it's a great answer. And I think just trying to align it with what on Earth does a business need to achieve, and then how is ABM going to help the business to achieve that? I think if you can align on those two, then you'll get a lot more people supporting you, and cheering you on. As opposed to perhaps throwing cabbages or tomatoes from the sidelines or whatever people throw. 

But Nora, you've been incredibly generous of your time today. Thank you so much for sharing so many insights from your own work, from the work you do at Forrester, and obviously we look forward to "The State of ABM" when it comes out later this year. So, thank you once again.

Nora (Forrester) – Yeah, thanks so much. Really appreciate talking to you today.