From Sales to ABM

Declan Mulkeen (strategicabm) – So, today I'm joined by Mujesira Dudic, who's the Director of ABM for Financial Services at Capgemini in the latest episode of Let's talk ABM.  Mujesira, thanks so much for joining me today.

Mujesira Dudic (Capgemini) – Thank you for having me, Declan.

Declan (strategicabm) – Well, look, we're going to talk about ABM for the next half an hour or so. You've got a fascinating story to tell. 

And let's kick off with a question about your experience with ABM strategy. I think you've been involved in Account-based Marketing now for four or five years. That is, for some people, is actually a veteran! Having that much experience. 

Obviously, a lot of people have been joining the ABM movement in recent years. But before that, you were actually, came from Sales. As actually, as I did as well. Let's start there, if I may. How did you see Marketing back then when you were involved in Sales, perhaps through the eyes of a Sales professional? And how did you see the two disciplines working together?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Yeah. So, I mean, to me, Sales and Marketing, honestly, throughout the 10 years of my experience as a Salesperson, never were seen as connected. They were really sitting on two totally separate sides, as we would say, of the companies. 

It felt like so much of the conversation that we would have with Marketing was never truly about any strategy, or how do we do things. It was always more operational inefficiencies, such as me being... ah, what would the best word be? Being punished, in a way, that as a Salesperson I didn't put the right things into the CRM! Or, that I didn't tag a person into the right event after Marketing put it on. 

So, I would say 90% of my communication with Marketing was about tagging things into the CRM. So to me, Marketing was always viewed as the people that were coming to, in a way, waste my time! Rather than people that were helping me drive the ball forward with the accounts that I was working with.

Declan (strategicabm) – But now obviously, after all that time in Sales, you've now crossed the divide into the Marketing world, into the ABM world. So, tell us about that crossing that you've made.

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, I saw – especially near the end of my time as an Account Executive, 'cause I wouldn't say it was the end of my time in Sales, as in certain ways I still consider myself to be a part of Sales – but I saw a world where we integrated what we were working on. We integrated our goals, and we focused our communication on the customer, rather than how we are putting things into systems. 

So, to me – and, you know, I'm a Millennial – so, buying into the idea that Marketing is extremely important: It is how we present ourselves to the customer; it's how your brand is perceived. And, from a Salesperson's mindset, I felt that Marketing was that key to when I cold call a person and say, "I'm calling you from this company, I have something to say." It made the difference whether they hang up on you, or whether they have the thought in their head of, "I've actually been meaning to connect with your company." 

So, that idea of how relevant Marketing was to Sales was actually very easy for me to buy into. And, as I was going through my own experience as a consumer today of watching how rapidly things were changing in the B2C space, I really was inspired to take some of those structures and embed them into how we were doing things in the B2B space.

Declan (strategicabm) – And on that point, actually, about the experience you had obviously in Sales – you've now moved into Marketing – would it be fair to say that you do see it as a different way for Sales and Marketing to work together?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Oh, absolutely. I mean, I truly feel like the future is that those teams are created within the same ecosystem. So, a team that is working on a revenue goal has components of personalities and roles that include Sales and Marketing. And rather than them being these separate departments that are measured by different metrics, that they really are integrated, not just in how they work, but how they're judged. Because the success of one should always be directly correlated to the success of other. 

And I think that if ever in a company, we have Marketing that isn't performing well, but Sales that is performing well – or vice versa – something's off. Like the structure of how we have the teams designed is off.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. Well, I think we might touch on that a little bit later actually, talking about that team and how the two work together. But let's just go a little bit back in the past for a second. 

I know that in your previous role, I think you were the first ABM hire there, and you talked when we were chatting before this recording, you talked about there was a need to change the mindset. And a lot of people talk about that, the fact that ABM requires a different mindset. Can you elaborate on that a bit more? What is it? What kind of mindset is required? And how do you go about changing that within a company to actually get it?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Yeah, for sure. I mean, so it actually hits on the point that I just made of looking at Sales and Marketing as all one team. So, when you are in ABM rather than in, what I would say, standard Marketing or traditional Marketing, my vision is that you lean on the idea that the only Marketing you do for an account is done with the collaboration of the Sales team. And "I am not doing a Marketing campaign while the Sales team sells. We are together doing a Marketing campaign, so that we can together sell." 

So even to the point I said earlier, it's like, yes, my title now has 'Marketing' in it, but I don't view myself as no longer being in Sales. I see myself as supporting Sales in a different way through a different role, but I still feel that Account-based Marketing is a part of Sales, rather than this separate function that sits on the side of it.

Declan (strategicabm) – That's interesting, we might explore that. I might actually make a note about it, to see that, to explore that, about ABM being part of Sales. 

Let's talk about that a little bit more, actually; about the idea, 'cause you just touched on something there which made me think about something you mentioned before. I think when we were talking before you said something that kind of jumped out at me. I think you said that there was comfort in Sales, whereas Marketers have their neck on the chopping block! 'Cause you've had 10 years in Sales, so you are better informed than anybody to talk about this. So, what do you mean by this comfort in Sales, whereas Marketing have their neck on the chopping block?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think in certain ways, I still see that so much in like the energy of Marketing and how we view ourselves. And so that's been very interesting, because, ultimately, when I transitioned to Marketing – full transparency! – I didn't go to it because it was, like, I wasn't doing well in Sales and I was discovering that I was hitting a wall in a career and I needed to try something that I might be better at. It really was inspired by how much I loved Sales. It was this piece that I saw missing and something that I really enjoyed doing. 

But, with that said, I was always good at Sales, so there was this comfort where I could always think of the idea of, "This company's paying me X and I'm bringing them 30 X." I could always have a direct correlation, because in Sales, metrics are very simple. It's how much revenue are you bringing in? 

And so to me, it always felt like my presence in the company was totally justified. When companies were going through whatever they were going through, when economy was going through whatever it was going through, there was a comfort level of being able always to look at the numbers and feel that my value exceeded what somebody was investing in me. 

Now, coming into how you communicate that value with Marketing: I mean, even when you look at a Marketing report these days, which like was a huge learning curve for me personally, there's just so many different ways that we measure ourselves. There's so many metrics that are floating around. There is so much that is being talked about, from the numbers standpoint in Marketing that sometimes that simplicity of value get's very lost in translation. 

So, there's still, to me, a fear to this day that pokes itself out every once in a while. And I have to remind myself that, yeah, my direct correlation with like revenue isn't a straight line, but that I now help lead revenue growth that's exponentially larger, actually, than what I used to deliver when I was a Salesperson. And it really forces you to get comfortable with that teamwork mentality rather than individual performer mentality that can be quite pervasive and, honestly, somewhat comforting in a Sales role.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, yeah. No, I definitely agree with you there. But just touching on something you mentioned there about language and the fact that us Marketers have been guilty of inventing untold number of acronyms and obviously using a non-inclusive language really and obviously, whether it's MQLs, SQLs or whatever the hell we've invented.

And, I think, you said to me before something about, you know, when we talk about that from a Marketing point of view, what you say in your head is, "So what?! Why are you telling me this?" Tell us a bit more about that kind of... I can imagine you now – having met you and, whatever, known you – that you could easily put, make people a bit uncomfortable in a room or in a presentation when you are shouting out with your New York accent: "So what?!" So, what do you mean by "So what"?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Yeah. I mean, I've been in so many conversations where we are kind of doing a Marketing overview of, like, this is what happened; we just put on this event, or this Marketing campaign was finalized. And the numbers that I was seeing and the story that was being presented, honestly, had me at the beginning, sit there and just think, who cares?! 

Like, I knew that the ultimate goal of presenting this stuff was always somehow to end up in front of the eyes of people that were in charge of Sales, or were in some sort of way, related directly to revenue creation. And coming from that background, I couldn't connect, like, I wasn't inspired seeing those reports. 

And, truth be told, sometimes I legitimately didn't know what they were saying. So, I obviously – coming from Sales – I had a learning curve of those, all of these acronyms of what the metrics mean, what they're really trying to say from a backend standpoint. And my perception was that, hey, if I don't know what they mean, you can expect that the people that you're going to be presenting this to or saying this story to, are not going to know what it means either. 

And it's small things like CTR or differentiating between SQL and MQLs, and conversion rates – all of that stuff. Sometimes, we have lived in that world and been surrounded by those reports and those metrics so much that we start to assume that they're default understanding for everybody. But they're really not. 

And now, I see all of those same metrics, but my head is always working in a way of, like, okay, how do I take those metrics and connect them to a bigger story where you explain to them what they're actually, like, how they're meaningful to the goals that they already have? Like, how they're moving the ball forward from a customer journey standpoint. 

And so, if we can start explaining Marketing through the lens of: This is why this matters and this is measuring, you know, you talk a lot about The Three Rs. And, really funny thing this morning, I had like a brain fart of, like, what was the first R in The Three Rs?! So, before this call, I go to jump on Google of like ‘Three Rs of Marketing’. 

And Declan, every single link had a different Three Rs! The first one was like 'reach', 'relevance', 'recognition'. The next one was, like, something else! Nowhere, with like on the first Google page was actually The Three Rs that you talk about – like 'recognition', 'relationships', 'revenue'. So even there, like just trying to like refresh my memory of like, oh, crap! Like, I forgot the first R.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah.

Mujesira (Capgemini) – There was so many different Three Rs of Marketing. And so just that in itself... and I have been guilty of, the last like six months talking about The Three Rs and saying what they are – that if somebody on my team goes and needs to refresh their memory, they're also going to come up against the wall of like, "Oh, wait! What was she talking about?! The Three Rs of Marketing?" So... 

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, that's a funny anecdote. So tell me, let's dive into your experience of ABM now a little bit. So we talked about your previous company where you were the first ABM hire. But let's just briefly, what did it take to start up an ABM motion from scratch? If you could just share a little bit there. What was that like?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – So, number one thing that I think needs to happen when you do ABM is education, and patience. So, you're starting something new, so the idea that most of the time when we decide that ABM makes sense for our company, we on the Marketing side have done a lot of research, have connected the dots in a lot of different ways of like how this makes sense and why it makes sense. 

And yet, when we finally take this to Sales, we're taking it to them in the stage of the process where we've decided to do this. And we're moving forward, and now the switch is being turned on. And sometimes, we forget that the same amount of time it took for us to wrap our mind around how this is going to look for the company, what it's going to entail, what roles is everybody going to play – it's going to take the other people just as long of a time. 

So, we need to be very cognizant of how we're presenting ABM, how we're explaining it. You talk about language here, too. A big thing to me is I bring up the fact that language is a problem in the name ABM, is I know that, just based on what these acronyms stand for, you're going to expect one thing – because it has the word 'Marketing' in it; I need you to take out of your head everything that you expect from Marketing and look at this more as a collaborative go-to-market strategy.

'Cause what I have found is, inside of Sales mindsets, 'go-to-market' means a very different thing than Marketing – and what ABM really plays a huge role in throughout the process of go-to-market is that strategic interface between what Sales is saying and what the customer is seeing and experiencing. 

And so the Marketing piece isn't a separate role, it's really that connection between the customer experience and what the Sales team is presenting to them when they are in front of them. The other thing that I was going to say from a first time is that it requires a lot of people.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah.

Mujesira (Capgemini) – And there's so many moving parts that you now need to connect. When I first started ABM is that there was – I think we're going to talk about this later – but there was a lot of ABM technology that we were using. And in certain ways, it was presented as this automated experience and ABM takes a lot of manual effort. There's a lot of things that need to be planned for and organized and structured. 

And so, just that alone was a big learning process for me, is going from what we set up in our strategy conversations to what the execution actually looks like, and how long execution actually takes – big difference from what we thought! And what the actual reality was.

Declan (strategicabm) – No, that's a great point and I think that the point that you mentioned, right, education is huge. It's going round. I was talking to another guest recently on Let's Talk, and they were talking, they spent about six months going around the business and educating the business just to make sure that everyone was aligned before they hit off on their journey, really. 

Now obviously, you came from kind of a software background and then now, obviously, you're at Capgemini. Incredibly well-known company; probably, if you had to define it, a large consulting firm, I suppose you could define it. Hopefully, I won't get told off by the Capgemini brand police for that! But that's a big change from software to consulting. 

But also, I understand that as you moved into Capgemini, Capgemini was going through a huge transformational time. So, what was that change like – jumping from one to the other?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Yeah. I mean, simply put, I loved it and I continue to love it. But the differences would be related to a lot of the expectation of what the customers think of you versus, with software companies, where the expectation is, like, the product is what you're selling. In a consulting company, you're really selling a relationship, you're part of the solution, you're never THE solution. It's about how you're structuring language as well and so much of it is how you're building trust. 

And I say that to say that I think some of the things software companies can learn from consulting companies is also to focus on those same principles, in a way? Because none of us are ever THE solution, we're all kind of always part of a puzzle that companies are putting together. 

And being inside of consulting, I was able to really understand that a lot more and have a much easier time grasping that idea, is that you're trying to understand the customer in a much more holistic manner, so that you can see all of their moving pieces and understand the fluidity of where you make sense, rather than this, like, very linear way of trying to put your solution inside of a hole that we discovered. 

So there's that piece. That other big piece was that when I was working with software companies, my focus was net new customers. And in a consulting company – I know this is true with Capgemini and I'm sure it's true with all of the companies – a majority of the target accounts are current customers, and what ABM looks like, from current customers to net new, much as it has a lot of overlap, there's a lot of differences there. 

And the first piece is kind of that relevance piece from how you make sense, within the company, because ultimately, they already have a perception of you. And so the first thing that you need to uncover is, what is that perception? Who does this customer already think we are to them, specifically, based on history that we clearly already have with them? 

So, you're not looking at the company from an external standpoint, you're actually using internal information to figure out what your starting point is today. And that starting point looks very different for each individual account of: Who do they think we are to them, based on what we've already done for them?

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. It's interesting because the origins of ABM, obviously with 20 years ago now – I think it's 20th anniversary this year – is with Accenture. And obviously, that's a company in a very similar space to Capgemini in certain respects. But why, just out of curiosity, why do you think it is – 20 years ago with Accenture and now today with Capgemini and other consulting firms – why do you think it is that they leverage ABM so much into existing customers?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – I think it's a matter of... it's not a revolutionary thought that in order to sell something to somebody, you need to know their needs and desires... I've listened to plenty of your episodes where you kind of talk about the conversation that you did have with the persons that started it and it was really just based on that, is that in order to be able to drive change forward inside of an individual company, you need to understand where that company is coming from and where they're trying to go. And what they're working with. And those three components look entirely different in every single company. 

So in order to be able to present a view of a future that they can relate to, and they can actually see as possible for them when you paint the art of the possible, painting it – using components that are actually currently a part of that company and that are reflective of conversations and information that you have gathered from that company – that totally changes the game as far as being able to enhance and develop all of those relationship components that we need in order to have those revenue opportunities that we are all striving for, so.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah. I mean, I think it's a very good point. I think I was just reflecting on that as well, that a lot of companies look at ABM as being a new-logo-acquisition strategy, and don't necessarily immediately want to apply it to their existing customers because of the imbalance that Marketing has between customer growth, customer retention, and new logo. But it's interesting that, as the origins are in existing customer growth, that I think, more people need to look at it with that lens, really.

You mentioned technology, actually, earlier. Let me just ask you a question about that, because I think a lot of people have this misconception that ABM is all about technology. And indeed, many people think that technology vendors created or invented ABM. Obviously, one of my jobs is to dispel that myth. 

But I think in your previous company, you had like a huge tech stack and like a lot of these software companies have got more technology than they know what to do with. And I think in a consulting firm, you probably have less technology, I'm guessing. But what's your take on technology? Because obviously, do you need it? Do you need some of it? What's your take?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – So, I thought about this a lot. And as you kind of mentioned, I've gone through two different worlds when it comes to the availability of technology and the experimentation with technology, as well. And the place where I have ended up at, is that I love technology at the end of a process, and the more I have of it at the beginning of the process, the more I hate it! So, it's amazing on the other side of the journey, but it can be very cumbersome to maneuver all of it in the beginning stages. 

And I think especially, what we talked about from starting up ABM from scratch, and I think that would be the case honestly, of starting up ABM even within an account, starting a new journey on a new campaign, or anything that we're talking about. Those initial processes are actually for the Marketers of this one team, are very manual. 

So, putting myself in the Salesperson's shoes, or the Leadership's shoes – technology is great, because it condenses information and gives you the ability to easier present a narrative that you are trying to speak to. Whether that is the velocity of how quickly we go through a deal, from stage zero to closed; whether that is the amount of relationships that we are developing and enhancing throughout that journey; technology lets you tell that story after a campaign very easily.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah.

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Now, what it forces you to do at the beginning, though, is a lot of manual steps as far as for a Marketer, how you upload data, checking that the data actually exists, checking on the validity of that data, like what needs to be – before we launch this – what needs to be cleaned up? What needs to be updated? What needs to be totally taken out? 

All of that, I mean, when I first was launching some of these ABM campaigns, I had nightmares of all-nighters that I pulled just trying to make sure that all the, what the customer and the Salespeople see as personalization that looks so beautifully automated at the end required a lot from me as the Marketer. It was Excel docs and Excel docs, and working with Marketing operations back and forth. 

So, I think that part is something that I would just caution everybody, is to think about not just the end result of those softwares, because I was also in the buying committee of a lot of these technology vendors and majority of the things that they were showing us was the end product. “Look at how great your reports will look, look at how great the Sales team will view their information”. Like, it was a lot of that integration with CRM and all of that, but very rarely did we talk about what it really takes to launch these campaigns that way. What it takes to like get it off the ground and make sure it's valid.

Declan (strategicabm) – No, I think it's a very sober message for everyone out there, that, looking to put the technology before the strategy, really, I think is really important. 

Another thing you said to me before, which really kind of jumped out to me, 'cause we were talking about dark social and the importance of dark social et cetera. And you said to me that, I think you said to me that your Sales team was your best example of dark social there at Capgemini and that these guys are the boots on the ground for you, that they are your eyes and ears, I think, you said. So how... ? I mean, just tell me a bit more about... I think people need to hear that story a bit more.

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Yeah. For sure, and one thing I love about this component, it goes back to the language conversation that we've had, because I've heard 12 different names for this as well. So, I started off with it being called 'intent data', then it went into 'dark funnel', now it's 'dark social', now I think there's some conversation around 'icebergs' that I still need to get educated on... ! But-

Declan (strategicabm) – For me, that was the iceberg one!

Mujesira (Capgemini) – There we go! I'm working on it! I'm working on making sure I'm keeping up with all the lingos. 

But, ultimately, kind of back to the point that I brought up earlier: at consulting companies, we are focused on always having an awareness of what's happening within our accounts by having conversations with decision-makers of what's keeping them up at night, what are they currently working on, what are they currently being measured against, is a big thing that I try to tell all of my account teams to understand. 

And the fact that that awareness and that information, typically, is coming from real conversations that they're having with these folks. To me, I will always have that trump any data that I see from dark funnel. 

However, I have had great success using dark funnel data. I've had it a very easy time justifying when we had new accounts that we were trying to raise to awareness of identifying, you know, back in the day of launching ABM from scratch – intent data, dark funnel, however we want to call it – was instrumental in deciding when you're talking about a million accounts, it's nice to have something show you the road. Ultimately, you configure so many different ways of trying to create a narrative of how we make these decisions. But this was a pretty easy way to do that. 

Now today, combining that with my account teams' knowledge that comes from customer intimacy and those very nurtured relationships, I tried to look at that type of data as more of confirming our thoughts and maybe raising to awareness some things that maybe we were unaware of. And rather than saying this is happening, using it as a guide for: Hey! Maybe you should have conversations and see what's happening there in terms of this topic? 

So I never see it as a clear guideline of, like, this is what's happening, this is what this says. It's really just like a: Oh, okay! We're definitely going in the right direction here! Or: Oh! I wonder if maybe you should have an additional conversation, or see if maybe the relationships that we have are not in this space? And that maybe we need to start on that relationship-building journey for that particular topic?

Declan (strategicabm) – Gotcha. Good. And I like the whole thing about customer intimacy as well. And I think that's trying to plug into that knowledge from the Sales team is invaluable. 

Two or three rapid-fire questions just to finish off with, Mujesira. Now obviously, ABM, I often talk about it as being a journey, ups and downs. You take the wrong turn, you run out of gas, or whatever. What would you say in your time, five, six years now that you've been involved in ABM, what would you say is your greatest learning from that journey so far?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Focusing on the customer rather than the Sales teams is vital and how your mindset shifts in a way that really helps to build trust with the Sales teams. 

So, number one thing is – I think I've seen it across the board with things that you talk about – is that, one of the hardest things about ABM is getting Sales buy-in. But, what I think happens is, there's a lack of trust. And it's not about them not trusting ABM, I think it's about them not trusting YOU to be able to execute on ABM properly. 

And that's one of the things that, the reason where I think some of the best ABMers were formerly Salespeople and / or come from some sort of Sales relationships within that company is that, there is a much easier journey for a Sales team to trust that you know what you're talking about when it comes to their customers rather than when it comes to Marketing. 

And that idea of that "I can do this for you" that I think a lot of ABMers forget is to sell trust in themselves, rather than in ABM, is a big thing that I would say is a difference between where I see ABMers be successful and where I see them kind of constantly beat their head against the wall with Sales teams!

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah, I think it's a good point in there. I think, when I've spoke to a lot of people about their advice about starting ABM, a lot of people say: Well, choose one Salesperson, get them on board, get them to support you, trust you. Because once one of them does and they see the results, and the wider team, everyone else will jump on.

I think, I was talking to Elise Miller who's over at ServiceNow and she was saying that one of the biggest problems they have at ServiceNow is that everyone wants ABM, 'cause they're so successful that they've created a problem that all the Sales teams want their accounts to be 'ABM-ed'. So, you can cause yourself a problem by doing what you said, which is correct. 

You touched on there the greatest learning and also you touched on the one of the hardest parts about ABM. What do you think one of the greatest misconceptions is about ABM?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – I've touched on this throughout our conversation, is the time it takes to do ABM properly. So there's two misconceptions I think, is that it requires a lot of money, but at the end, it saves us time. And I would say that ABM, I think, can be done very well with not that much money, but ultimately, it requires a lot more time from both Marketers and Sales teams. 

And the other big thing that I have experienced with the Sales teams that I work on, is actually leading with that. When you talk about something being very easy – which I think Marketers often make the mistake of doing – is they try to sell new ideas as "They'll be easier for you. It'll take barely any time! Like, look how great of an idea we have that's going to require so little effort from you!" 

Where I actually think most of us is: "Whatever is worth having is worth working for" concept. When you lead with the idea is: "We're going to do something that's going to require a lot from you, and it's going to gain a lot for you" is actually a lot better way to get the team's buy-in. 

I encourage all Marketers that I've spoken to within my company or outside to kind of get away from that idea of this is so easy, 'cause it's not. And I think people have a much easier time buying into hard things.

Declan (strategicabm) – Okay. So basically, be honest, be transparent, and tell 'em how it is, and...

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Set your expectations.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah! No, I think that's a great one. Last question for you. I know that you are, when we first spoke you were in New York and obviously, 'cause you're a New Yorker, or an adopted New Yorker I think, and now I think you find yourself today in, I think you're in Malaga, is that right?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Yes.

Declan (strategicabm) – In my country, in Spain. So, let's just imagine you get a phone call later today, you're just about to pop out and have a nice little glass of wine and a tapas, and one of your old colleagues says to you: "Hey! I've got to go and present some ABM strategy." What's that one piece of advice you give them about what they should make sure they mention, or make sure they do, before you pop out for that little glass of sherry?

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Absolutely. And I'm still a New Yorker, I will say; I'm in Malaga for a week, enjoying this beautiful sunshine that you are so used to. 

But, number one advice that I have for anybody looking to launch an ABM strategy is to do a human inventory of your strategy. So, whatever you put together as an overview of "Here are the components of ABM and here's what each of those components is going to look like" – make sure you connect that piece to a human person at your company. If you can't connect all the dots, you're probably not ready to launch ABM. 

You know, within my first company and even today, we're constantly coming up against parts of ABM where it's, "Well, who does that?" Or realizing that that has to be tossed over the wall into a different department that will slow down the timeline and all of those things. So, break it down into very specific components and then assign those components to very specific people at your company.

Declan (strategicabm) – Yeah.

Mujesira (Capgemini) – If you want to make sure that you are ready.

Declan (strategicabm) – And that's a great point. I think as you said, there are so many moving parts to an ABM strategy once you launch it, that it does require so many different teams to come and help you, and you do have that question sometimes saying, "Oh no! Who's going to do this for us?" Yeah. So it is a challenge. 

Mujesira, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for sharing your ABM journey with us. I wish you a lovely time with your time left in Malaga, in Spain, and safe travels back to New York, and all the best for the future.

Mujesira (Capgemini) – Thank you so much.